God keeps his promises. If someone hijacks the promises made to Israel in the latter prophets, they are fooling themselves. God makes conditional promises and uncondtional promises. When God makes an unconditional promise, it will happen despite the disobedience of the audience. That's the point of grace. Sola Gratia! Read Romans, in it you will see Paul takes about the restoration of Isreal.
Posts by robB
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12The prophecies on Israel actually happening, yet no religion speaks of this.....
by EndofMysteries ini've been putting together what the bible 'really' teaches and not trying to put together what i want it to teach.
just a few interesting things which seem to flow through all of the prophet books............ first for israel had a curse if they didn't follow yahweh, deut 28:15-68 fortells what will happen.
it culminated with them being surrounded by their enemies and cut off and such ferocity that they would do cannibalism, mothers eating children and such.
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History of 1914 date
by robB infrom the small amount of research that i've done i've found the following points:.
charles russell was the author of the prophecy that christ returned in 1914in an earlier period of his life russell promoted the idea christ had returned in 1874, which was originated by another man named nelson barbourat both times, christ was said to have returned invisibly (does anyone remember the story of the emperor's new clothes)russell used some measurements from inside of the great pyramid of giza to bolster his calculation for 1914, which was rooted in the cobbling of bible passages dealing with the fall of jersualem, the times of the gentiles and nebuchadneezar episode of madness (7 times)am i missing anything?.
i'm trying to show a friend in the organization that all of this is a bunch of baloney.. .
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robB
I greatly appreicate the responses. You've given me good leads to hunt down.
By the way, what I am doing, is the way each of us should determine any truth we accept. Check it out for yourself. Examine all of the evidence that you can get your hands on.
The evidence for God lies in the facts of history which you can find.
Blind faith gets people involved with the WTS, the mormons, the Pagan religions, Atheisim. mP, find a good friend. Ask them to read Paul's letter to the Romans. If he doesn't come up with astrology in the slightest, you may be wasting your time.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
from leavingWT: "If you'd like to briefly give a summary of the evidence that convinces you that God exists, I'd be happy to examine it. (For the sake of the discussion, you should probably define 'God', too. If you're a Christian, then I'm likely familiar with the general outline.)"
Hmm, how do I give a summary of evidence that convinces me that God exists? There are so very few people who can give an concrete answer to this. But first a deep thought for you to ponder. If there is no God then abiogenesis is the way we got here. What is the difference between you accepting abiogenesis and your former master's invisible return of Jesus?
The points:
The ancient Jews actually existed. They carried around texts that were meticulously preserved. Jesus existed. The life of Jesus was recorded by eyewitnesses and hangers on with provable claims. The records of his life were produced in the first century for the audience who could verify the data. The events of his life matched the prophecies expected for the saviour of the ancient Jews.
The most plausible explanation drawn from theses facts and the thousands of pieces of manuscript evidence lead to conclusions that Jesus is God.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
from Cofty: "My question to you still stands, how do you connect the naked lady eating the fruit with suffering in animal kingdom?"
If the Bible is true then all of creation was affected by the fall, animals too. Genesis 3:17,18 and Romans 8:19-21. If this is not so, what point is Isaiah trying to make in his analogy here:
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
See All... The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
See All... The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.This is a most reasonable view. I wouldn't die for it.
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History of 1914 date
by robB infrom the small amount of research that i've done i've found the following points:.
charles russell was the author of the prophecy that christ returned in 1914in an earlier period of his life russell promoted the idea christ had returned in 1874, which was originated by another man named nelson barbourat both times, christ was said to have returned invisibly (does anyone remember the story of the emperor's new clothes)russell used some measurements from inside of the great pyramid of giza to bolster his calculation for 1914, which was rooted in the cobbling of bible passages dealing with the fall of jersualem, the times of the gentiles and nebuchadneezar episode of madness (7 times)am i missing anything?.
i'm trying to show a friend in the organization that all of this is a bunch of baloney.. .
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robB
Many thanks for the help. I really appreciate the research you've all done. I would like to ask you folks that were previously witnesses if you would have left sooner had someone provided this information to you? -- If you had a clear picture of who came up with the date and how it was done and the history of Russell.
I've been trying to help a good friend get out for a number of years. He grew up as a witness. We've discussed theological issues for dozens of hours and I think this is a waste of time in his particular case.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
Hi robB, welcome to JWN.
I too would be interested to hear how you join the dots between the naked lady eating the fruit and the fact that the natural world is designed to maximise animal suffering.
In fact Christ has suffered more than anyone ever will.
I'm sure it stung a bit with the nails and all but plenty people have suffered worse.
Your false dichotomy between absolute morality and mere preference doesn't stand up, if you would like to discuss the moral argument for god I would be up for it on a new thread.
Thanks for the welcome. I connect the dots with the John Rylands papyrus. You have to start somewhere.
The process of his physical death was the least of his pain. If the book is correct he endured the penalty all people (or at least the elect if you're bent that way) should have received in the measure of what's owed when you offend an infinite being. Slapping your brother gets 1 kind of penalty, slapping your mother gets another kind, slapping the president gets much more serious.
False dichotomy? Maybe you're right. Let's explore the possibilities.
A. God exists and he makes an absolute moral standard against which all behaviour is measured.
B. God exists and he doesn't make an absolute moral standard.
C. God does not exist therefore no absolute moral standard is ever created.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
"Welcome to the forum." Thanks for the welcome.
"Most of us reject the first statement....." I assume you were once a Witness. That you have come to the conclusion that the Watchtower is not God's prophet does not negate the existence of God.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
"I'm wondering, though, what the fall and redemption of mankind has to do with innocent animals suffering due to no fault of there own?"
You'll have to take that up with God but my immediate thought is that if animals lived forever, we'd think they were gods.
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24
History of 1914 date
by robB infrom the small amount of research that i've done i've found the following points:.
charles russell was the author of the prophecy that christ returned in 1914in an earlier period of his life russell promoted the idea christ had returned in 1874, which was originated by another man named nelson barbourat both times, christ was said to have returned invisibly (does anyone remember the story of the emperor's new clothes)russell used some measurements from inside of the great pyramid of giza to bolster his calculation for 1914, which was rooted in the cobbling of bible passages dealing with the fall of jersualem, the times of the gentiles and nebuchadneezar episode of madness (7 times)am i missing anything?.
i'm trying to show a friend in the organization that all of this is a bunch of baloney.. .
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robB
From the small amount of research that I've done I've found the following points:
- Charles Russell was the author of the prophecy that Christ returned in 1914
- In an earlier period of his life Russell promoted the idea Christ had returned in 1874, which was originated by another man named Nelson Barbour
- At both times, Christ was said to have returned invisibly (does anyone remember the story of the Emperor's new clothes)
- Russell used some measurements from inside of the great pyramid of Giza to bolster his calculation for 1914, which was rooted in the cobbling of bible passages dealing with the fall of Jersualem, the times of the gentiles and Nebuchadneezar episode of madness (7 times)
Am I missing anything?
I'm trying to show a friend in the organization that all of this is a bunch of baloney.
-
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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robB
As a Theist I am qualified to answer the OP's question. The rest of you Anti-Thiests are wasting your time. God allows suffering because it is in his plan. Remember that the redemption plan was in effect before the foundation of the world. If a redemption is guaranteed, then the fall must also be guaranteed. No plan of God fails, otherwise, he cannot be God.
Ultimately, as a creation, you are unable to require an answer from the creator. He owes you nothing. You exist at his pleasure. That suffering is in the plan is without question. God chose Christ to suffer, see Isaiah 53, and he chooses the world to suffer as well. In fact Christ has suffered more than anyone ever will. Much of suffering is overrated jealousy. A lot of suffering is necessary for strength.
If you still hang on to the short sighted deception that there is no God, I offer the moral apologetic. If there is absolute good and absolute evil, there must be an absolute moral lawgiver. This is God. If God does not exist, then there is no absolute moral law. There is no good or bad, merely preferences and opinions. That you have nothing to eat and I throw away food is perfectly fine with me. What is there to complain about?