this question is for atheists and believers.
what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?
do you still think they are right about the trinity?
Hi Christ Alone I do believe that the WTS got 3 things correct and personally I think they are important doctrines. Their rejection of hell fire. Their teaching on soul sleep and the soul not being immortal. Their rejection of the trinity. There are other teachings that could be mentioned, but these 3 set them apart from many other Christian denominations. None of these doctrines where at all new when Russell came on the scene, but he chose to accept them as biblical truth.
FWFranz
this is the summary of the rumored new light from the 2012 annual meeting, as posted by cedars.. the faithful and discreet slave was not appointed at pentecost 33ce, meaning that there has not been a continuous line of members of the slave class on the earth down through the ages.
the slave class was only appointed for the first time by christ in 1919.the faithful and discreet slave is a small group of anointed brothers during jesus presence serving at watchtower headquarters who are directly involved in the preparing and dispensing of spiritual food.
the individual members of the governing body are not the faithful and discreet slave.
Hi Leolala
If this change in doctrine/understanding is in fact true, it will require a lot of explaining, as it raises many questions and presents several obvious contradictions. I could comment on those that come to mind immediately, but that would be a rather lengthy post. Instead I will share some "insider" information that may have contributed to this change, if indeed these rumours are true. I have to be very careful about how many beans I spill as that might quickly reveal my own idenitiy which is not desired at this time. I have been in contact with an elderly anointed brother over the last few years. He is personally responsible for a lot of research that the Society uses. I can't say much more about him as that would reveal his identity. Anyway, a few years ago he was researching the supposed identity of the FDS through out history. We had a few discussions on this subject. His extensive research came up pretty much empty handed. With the criteria given him by the WTS as to what constituted genuine anointed Christians, mostly being what they believed doctrinally, he could find almost no one in recorded history who fit the criteria. Of course there where some who denied the trinity but maybe believed that the soul was immortal, or other similar situations. None could be found that embraced the beliefs necessary to consider them sufficiently enlightened by the holy spirit to be considered genuine anointed ones, according to the WTS. There may have been other brothers who where assigned this particular research project as well. I am assuming that they also came up short of identifiable believers that shared the list of WT doctrines that would clearly identify them as part of the FDS. So, maybe this is one of the reasons for a doctrinal change today at Bethel. I can't say for certain, but this may have contributed to this "new light".
Any thoughts on this line of reasoning?
FWFranz
please post any examples of clear cut watchtower deception.
my wife does not believe that the watchtower would purposely decieve her.
i need clearcut examples of deception of by the wtbts.
Hi Indian Larry I am not sure if you would equate this with outright deception, but I can tell you what opened up my eyes in a big way. This example will only be meaningful to someone who really believes the bible and one who would take the bibles words to be more meaningful than the words of the WTS. I first looked at this line of reasoning after reading Ray Franz's book, "Crisis of Conscience". Ray brought out an article from 1973 that clearly stated that the WTS considers itself as God's end time prophet. This is a fact that no JW will deny and is something that is universally acknowledged among them. Upon a deeper investigation of WT predictions it was painfully obvious that virtually every last time prediction they made had failed. This is evident from their earliest days right up until the latest "generation" fiasco. A real bible believing Christian has to ask themselves just one very important question. Do they REALLY believe that God would raise up His prophet in the last days and that this prophet would have a 100% failure record for all their predictions. Would this inspire even a single person to put faith in them as "chosen" and uniquely directed by almighty God. The one passage of scripture that completely and undeniable shows the WT to have failed the "prophet test" is in Deuteronomy chapter 18. Any honest hearted person who really wants the "truth about the truth" will respond to this.
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or [ f ] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord , if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
I hope the scales fall from her eyes.
FWFranz
i've found this topic and subject to be extremely powerful.
this is for those who still believe in god, realize the wt is apostate, and trying to help family.
(meaning i do not wish it to be used on trying to turn people athiest, i respect everyone's choices, i just believe and would hate my help to do what i feel is wrong) it might help fix things, or if you are still wondering how to awaken them without scaring them and being instantly shunned.
Hi EndofMysteries The misunderstanding of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 has led the WT into teaching an untruth about the timing of the first ressurrection, that is for certain. But there are other truths revealed in that passage of scripture that also prove that the WTS's teaching on an invisible parousia that includes so called "annointed ones" remaining on the earth for a protracted period of time during this suppossed parousia is also false. This can be shown in their own copy of the The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scritpures. Their own marginal references tell a very dfferent tale than what has been published in the pages of the WT since the days of Bro. Russell. If you examine 1st Thessalonians 4 verse 17 in the Interlinear you will notice on the left hand side where there is a word for word translation. Here the WTS correctly ascribes the definition of the word "aema" ( Strongs, Number 260) as being " at the same time". As far as my own research goes, this is a commonly accepted definition of the word "aema" among Koine Greek scholars.
Conclusion. If those who are raised from the dead rise to meet Jesus in the clouds "at the same time" (as clearly stated in greek) with the living members of Christs brothers, then this teaches two doctrines that are very at odds with WT teaching. First off this would mean that at Christ's parousia or return that all of his body members would receive their reward at the same time and that they would be raised to meet Christ in the air simultaneously. This could not possibly be reconciled with a teaching that some began to be resurrected in 1918 ( 1878 in CT Russell's mind) and that others would remain on earth for nearly a 100 years after the begining of Jesus parousia! That would definitely be in sharp contrast to Pauls statement that this all happenened "at the same time"!
epeita hmeiv oi zwntev (5723) oi perileipomenoi (5742) ama sunautoiv arpaghsomeqa (5691) en nefelaiv eiv apanthsin tou kurioueiv aera; kai outwv pantote sun kuriw esomeqa. (5704)
Secondly if the WT insists that there are still some of Christs brothers on earth, this would be proof that Jesus had not returned invisibly or otherwise! Simply because when Jesus does return one of the signs of his parousia will be indicated by the simultaneous removal of all his body members to meet him in the clouds. Therefore since the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus has NOT returned, and that there are absolutely no scriptures that clearly teach that Jesus would make an examination of all of Christendom's church's at any time, let alone in 1918, this nullifies the WTS's claim to be exclusively chosen by God.
FWFranz
for more than 30 years i believed everything that came from the watchtower society, especially since i lived at bethel for a while and i knew a lot of the gb members, who to me seemed intelligent and personable.
at the beginning, the emphasis was on the bible, the kingdom, jehovah and jesus.
but gradually over time, there would appear an elephant in the room that no one seemed to talk about, such as the change in the understanding of "generation.
When it became obvious that they had appointed themselves. After reading COC I did an intense amount of research about the begining of the Watchtower Society. I researched not only Russell's contributions, but those of his close associates, John H. Paton and Nelson Barbour. The single thing that disqualified the WTS and identified them as frauds was their claim to be God's only prophet on earth. What genuine prophet of God would have a 100% failure rate for every prediction they ever made for over a century? Yes, they are a prophet, but unfortunately for them, they are the very ones that Jesus warned us of. Deut 18.
FWFranz
this is an extract from a brisbane times article regarding princes current tour of australia .
.. seems prince is finding his feet as the uber-dub these days.
even freedom of religion is conditional it seems, ie; only for jw's.
If I met Prince I would like to ask him a question that would, I am sure leave him speechless. As a believing JW who is convinced that we are on the brink of Armageddon, why isn't he compelled to quit the music business with all its bad associations and tempataions. I am sure he has enough in the bank to keep him preaching FULL TIME until he draws his last breath. That of course will never happen.
FWFranz
P.S. I do speak with some experience about the temptations that exist in the music business. At one time I managed a world famous rock band that toured the world several times and hobnobbed with all the rock royalty.
on average, how many highly trained bible students would you estimate existed in your kingdom hall?
to define this further, i am thinking of men or women who studied more than watchtower literature, spent time in libraries to dig deeper than most shallow minded drones.. how can someone be a baptized jw for forty five years and be stupid regarding "the trintiy, hell fire, first century culture, church father's teachings, rapture, heaven, reasons for defending the reliability of bible texts."?
could the watering down, diluted teachings be the problem with "new-gen's" impotent bible understanding or lack of understanding?.
OOPs! That would be Apotheosis. I was typing a bit fast!
on average, how many highly trained bible students would you estimate existed in your kingdom hall?
to define this further, i am thinking of men or women who studied more than watchtower literature, spent time in libraries to dig deeper than most shallow minded drones.. how can someone be a baptized jw for forty five years and be stupid regarding "the trintiy, hell fire, first century culture, church father's teachings, rapture, heaven, reasons for defending the reliability of bible texts."?
could the watering down, diluted teachings be the problem with "new-gen's" impotent bible understanding or lack of understanding?.
Bubblegum Apotheothis This is a good question and the answer is quite depressing. Simply put, an intellectual or academic response from the rank and file has always been discouraged. I have relatives who have been going to the KH faithfully for over 50 years and they still know the same 5 words in Koine greek that they learned in the first year of being a JW. Can you imagine if the WTS had taught a short but progressive Koine greek course every week since its inception. By now my relatives would all be completely fluent in 1st century greek. That is absolutely NOT what the Society wants. Keep feeding the flock on bread crumbs and make sure they never really mature. Its the only way they can maintain their hold on them.
FWFranz
i thought this might be worth running again as there are new ones on here that may not have ever known about this.this movie was shown once a year at our hall during the 60's and into the 70's as well.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzfu_vcwqso.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odyuwezapme&feature=related.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlie8jiihd4&feature=related.
Hi
Does anyone remember "The Bibles View" TV program that the WTS produced in the middle 1970's. It may have aired exclusively in Canada as Toronto was where it was filmed and produced. I used to do the camera work with a few other pioneers who where trained how to operate the large studio cameras. It was shot at Channel Nine Studios. Sometimes Bethel heavies used to show up for the tapings.
FW Franz
so to make a long story short, my family found out about my "apostacy"(i couldn't take it anymore) and now everything is all in shambles.
they still feel there is "hope" for me.
(ha!).
Hi
This is just my two cents worth, but I would at all costs avoid that particular discussion. At least for the moment. I think the most important question is whether or not the WTS was actually appointed by God. A close look at their track record will easily prove otherwise to someone that is man enough to accept the facts. You don't have to leave WT literature to make this point. The old light/new light nonsense will not work hear so any self honest person will be forced to admit that the WTS is self appointed. In a nutshell here is my argument.
The WTS has boldly claimed to be God's sole end time prophet and mouth piece. This is undeniable and any JW would have to concede this point as it is mentioned numerous times in their publications. The fact that the WTS identify themselves as Jehovah's prophet is critical and must be established for this line of reasoning to be effective. Shortly after their supposed choosing in 1918/19 they began a huge campaign ( "Millions Now Living") that centered around their prediction of the end coming in 1925 and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth. This prediction was obviously an utter failure. One only has to ask any honest hearted JW one question regarding this colossal fiasco. Do they really think that God's end time prophet would be announced to the world with a failed prediction of this magnitude. A quick read of Deuteronomy 18 will answer all questions about the identity of a true prophet verses a false one. The bible has no examples of God's true prophets who have only a string of failed predictions to establish their credibility. Only the WTS has this distinction. I hope you are able to convince your father of your position.
FW Franz
