Nitty-Gritty

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Posts by Nitty-Gritty

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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  @Ruby 456

  As far as I am aware, and from personal experience, elders have not stopped anyone from seeking "professional" help. And yes, I know of elders who have advised others to get professional help. The elders are of course first and foremost spiritual  guides. Although the Bible's guidance and principals are very practical in all areas of life, some things only a professional in the field can help with, for example a doctor or a psychiatrist. The brothers recognize this. As for marriage councilors, well, from personal experience, our marriage councilor didn't do our marriage any good and we ended up getting a divorce. We were both spiritually low at the time. That seems to say a lot. At least in my experience.
  

  As regards children, the elders generally do not interfere with what is the parents responsibility. They may offer advice but ultimately the parents are responsible for their children. Actually, the elders do not generally interfere with the private life of others period, unless others come to them, or a problem becomes apparent which can affect others.  I have already stated on here somewhere in a post that I agree that the elders of Fremont should have warned parents about Kendrick. I can say that because if the parents of Candace had been warned, then most likely Candace would not have been molested. The only reason I can think of why they didn't was because they believed the case was closed. They believed that Kendrick would not re-offend. I can say that because logically (and if we are honest and fair and not haters) they would not feel comfortable about a predator running around in their midst either. The elders have kids. And only two elders knew about Kendrick. The other elders with kids did not. Kendrick could have molested any of the kids.

  Are you familiar with the  entire Candace Conti case? I have read all of the over 3000 pages of court transcripts covering the 10 day trial. Very insightful.
  

  
  
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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  @
  

  DATA-DoG

  Don't get upset. My response was to @Separation of Powers because he/she said that members of a congregation are "told that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression". I was saying that Elders are supposed to advise others only as regards spiritual matters in these areas using the Bible. Once they start giving out personal opinions and advice then they are wrong and are going against the instructions in the hand book for elders. I was not necessarily referring to any specific case.
  

  The meaning of "special relationship" in legal terms I understand is not the same as the "special relationship" you are talking about. I am no lawyer but I understand a "special relationship" to mean that one entity (in this case an elder or body of elders) is responsible for the actions of another entity (in this case a member in the congregation).

  Also you are misunderstanding what is involved in bringing reproach upon JW organization. Anyone acting in contrary to the Bible brings reproach on the organization, naturally. But it has never been the policy to hide the fact that there are some who live contrary to the Bible, and most JWs are well aware that there are individuals who do act contrary to the Bible and those are usually disfellowshipped when found out, unless genuinely repentant. People on the outside are also made aware of this as the magazines are distributed to the public also. The WT 1986/1/1 page 13 says this: "Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality". 

  The thing is, these people remain anonymous for the most part. We do not have a list of names of all those who have committed these crimes and the details there of. But I agree, child molestation IS different.  And this is basically what this case is about. Making public the names of child molesters so that members of the congregation can avoid them....
  

  P.S. The kind of reproach in the sense you are talking about is when one brother takes another brother to court over something which they could have resolved by themselves (this of course does not include criminal actions).
  

  
  
  
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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  @Separtion of powers
  

  "as you know the ORG is all that matters to a witness" No, a relationship with God is what matters.

  "you tell them that they should approach the elders for counsel on everything from marital problems to depression" - this was supposed to apply only in as far as it affects a persons spiritual well being. The elders are not and never have been marriage councilors nor psychologists nor doctors and have not claimed to be such, or should not have claimed to be such. Elders who take it upon themselves to act in these capacities are not following counsel.
  
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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  @OrphanCrow

  Awake! 1993-10-08 “Prevention in the home...... It is not  the stranger in a trench coat, the loner lurking in the bushes, who poses the greatest threat to children. It is a member of the family. The vast majority of sexual abuse occurs in the home. So how can the home be made more resistant to abuse?.....”

  http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g19931008/prevent-child-sexual-abuse/

  Awake! 1981-02-08 Incest—The Hidden Crime

  October 1, 1983, issue of The Watchtower – Help for the victims of incest
  

  January 22, 1985, issue of Awake -…. “Sadly, much sexual abuse occurs right within the confines of the family. The following article will discuss how you can make your family a safe haven in an abusive world”.

  October 2007 issue of Awake! –“ “My father was a cold, angry drunk,” Heather says. “He beat me terribly, and he molested me and my sisters.”
  

  And so on

  http://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=child+abuse
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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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• 

  Nitty-Gritty

  @ DATA-DOG

  No, ultimately it doesn't matter what the police did or didn't do. I was just answering a poster who said "In all of this, ask yourselves one question,  How interested were the elders in Fremont with the well-being of Kendricks step-daughter"? I was implying that it had nothing to do with not being interested in someone's well being.

  First of all why should it matter who I am, and why do you think I am a JW apologist? Just because I don’t scream hang them! Like the rest? I am interested in intelligent, logical and reasonable arguments. For or against, it doesn’t matter. I ignore anyone who passes judgments without even being familiar with the case in question. That’s just dumb. (I am not necessarily saying you are one of them). The fact that I am on here just when the WTS is starting their oral arguments is just a coincidence.

  
  
• 
  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  @ Separation of Powers

  Also, ask yourselves; how interested were the CPS, the Police and district attorney who all sent Kendrick back home to live with his step-daughter in her well-being?
  
• 
  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  3. 
• 

  Nitty-Gritty

  @truthseekeriam

  My opinion too.
  
• 
  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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• 

  Nitty-Gritty

  @ DATA- DOG

  Of course it is a very complex situation and I am in no position to suggest a perfect solution as I am nobody compared with the experts, especially when the experts have no fool proof and perfect solution either. But even the experience with Kendrick's stepdaughter, who spoke up immediately after the incidence, showed it worked to an extend as it prevented her from being abused again. Pedophiles are cowards, and they will only "work with" victims of whom they are sure they will not expose them. So yes, helping children to be aware of the existence of pedophiles does a lot towards their protection. Of course this only works if the parents are doing this. That is why I said the situation is very complex because it has to take into account the existence of dysfunctional families, who do not do their job as well as other parents. Educating parent and children works well in cases of where no one is aware of a pedophile because they have not molested anyone yet. However once a pedophile has been identified, other parents should be informed of the potential danger. And this is where the Elders of Freemont and WTS failed.
  
• 
  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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• 

  Nitty-Gritty

  @ Kanon

  Yes, I agree with you. Although they (elders) assumed Kendricks' was a "one time" felony, and they believed he was truly repentant, and they warned him about getting near any children, and they warned him they would be watching him, and they thought the case was closed, and obviously they were wrong and their "safeguards" were not enough. IF they had warned the parents of minor children in the congregation, then what happened to Candace in all probability would not have happened. (And if despite this, Kendrick would have still managed to molest her, then it would have been a tragedy, and the court would in all probability have held the parents responsible and not WTS). So yes, I agree with you.

  But this scenario, and the whole Candace Conti case demonstrates that it would be the "easier" option (from the point of view of the WBT) to warn the parents because then the responsibility rests squarely with them, and is no longer the responsibility of WTS. So I don't see the logic of accusing the WTS of being hush hush only to avoid lawsuits. ....because as demonstrated, the opposite would be true.
  
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  111

  Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

  by Chaserious in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

  i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

  it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

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  Nitty-Gritty

  Looking at things objectively, while researching various scholarly and secular essays and articles, dealing with pedophilia and how to protect our children, what struck me the most, was that all seemed to concentrate on “understanding” and identifying a pedophile, at the same time admitting that this is usually possible only after the pedophile has already had victims. The other method was for parents to learn to ask the right questions of institutions such as day care providers etc. However, we know that a pedophile is an expert at hiding who they are, and an expert at infiltrating such institutions. And an expert at grooming their victim. On top of that, we know that most pedophiles pray on those they know, i.e. family, relatives and friends. Then also there is advice on reporting suspicious behavior on the one hand, but advising caution of “over suspicion” and being wary of false accusations on the other hand…..

  What I find odd, is that rarely do these articles address the obvious first line of defense: the dynamics between a (good) parent and a child, (mutual trust and open communication) and the education of the child as to “bad touch” “good touch” (even from parents), etc. In my opinion the various Awake articles and other WT publications have produced excellent advice as to this first line of defense. Just my observation…..

  http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/activities/help-community/safeguarding-children-sexual-abuse/#?insight