What a coward! So he is doing all that so his momma doesn't throw him out on the street with nothing but $142 in his pocket? And you all think he is so amazing!?? He should grow some balls and be true to himself! (Obviously his momma won't throw him out if he is still at school). He is just an attention seeking idiot who needs to grow up.
Nitty-Gritty
JoinedPosts by Nitty-Gritty
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27
"Your good example is much needed for the young ones the congregation."
by Yondaime inhey guys n gals, sorry its been such a long time since i've posted.
lately i've been very busy balancing between my school work and cult activities.
since i've been doing pretty well "spiritually"(enough field-circus hours, attending meetings, underlining my literatrash, reading, praying and serving as the mic-master) my coordinator grabbed me to the side after a meeting and talked to me for twenty minutes straight congratulating me about how good i am doing.. then he paused for a good five seconds and got all serious.. then he proceeded to tell me that the young ones in the hall aren't doing too well.
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New french member / new website
by jw-verite ini've been reading you for several months now and at last i decided to register !
i'm not sure if my post is in the good category so feel free to move it if it is not.... i'm french and i da'd in last november, losing my family by the way... i'm married and my wife is still in but our couple is still strong.. i still believe in the bible and i go from time to time in a baptist church.. i created a french website to expose the watchtower and its false teachings.
there is not a lot of websites like jwfacts in french so i tried to make it !.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ jw-verite
Just interested, what were you D'fed for?
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Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
by Simon in(the david bowie song in case you're wondering).
there seems to be a lot of talk and speculation about the changes that are coming at the next district conventions.
there have certainly been quite a few articles and talks (esp.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Simon. Sure, to say a date was coming is nothing special, but Russell didn’t do just that he said he believed the Gentile times were ending that year, what happened on the world scene, especially as regards the Bible Students, was not what was expected of course, but the belief that the Gentile times ended evidently never changed since then.
@ Magnum. Love your avatar by the way. Yes, when looking at your statistics 1914 is not mentioned as frequently maybe that might be something to do with the fact that it is an established belief and does not need to be “taught” over and over again. Somewhere at the beginning of the thread someone predicted that 1914 was going to be slowly phased out completely and this is clearly not true. If you google the beliefs of JWs one of the things mentioned is 1914 as Christ’s second coming. It looks like it is a core belief.
@Village idiot I think the main mistake people make is calling it predictions. Those prophesies are Biblical predictions and they obviously cannot change. It is the interpretation of them which by default can change if after they happen they have not happened in the way it was thought they would. In any case, Russell always placed a disclaimer on his interpretation of Biblical prophecy and always admitted he may be wrong. Indeed he was wrong many times in his lifetime but he kept searching. If you keep searching you may get it right one day, if you don’t search you will never find....my thought anyway.
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Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
by Simon in(the david bowie song in case you're wondering).
there seems to be a lot of talk and speculation about the changes that are coming at the next district conventions.
there have certainly been quite a few articles and talks (esp.
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Nitty-Gritty
@Simon
Actually that is not true. I have a pdf file of a 1913 WT where it clearly says that they were expecting something big to happen in 1914. (Also in other WT prior to 1914, but I am not sure which ones).
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Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
by Simon in(the david bowie song in case you're wondering).
there seems to be a lot of talk and speculation about the changes that are coming at the next district conventions.
there have certainly been quite a few articles and talks (esp.
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Nitty-Gritty
I just put 1914 in jw.org and there seems to be plenty about it, even recently....so I would say it's going strong
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Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
by Simon in(the david bowie song in case you're wondering).
there seems to be a lot of talk and speculation about the changes that are coming at the next district conventions.
there have certainly been quite a few articles and talks (esp.
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Nitty-Gritty
This thread is now 15 years old! So, what have the changes been? I see 1914 is still going strong as opposed to what some posters predicted.... -
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Canada's MACLEANS article "Against their will: Inside Canada’s forced marriages." The main subject in the story is an XJW we all know.
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/against-their-will/.
forced marriage is one of the last taboos to break.
a new law could make it a crime.
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Nitty-Gritty
I cannot believe that the Andersons even posted this article. It is obvious that this was a mother's choice and nothing to do with JW practice. As a few have already posted on here, JWs do not practice pre- arranged marriage. The quote from "Keep yourselves in God's love" was just a factual statement and not an endorsement for this practice.
It seems that the Andersons just put out anything that their google alert sends out. So desperate for any JW bashing news.
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Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14
by Chaserious inwith hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Chaserious
If you look at the 1989 letter introduced at trial, it is obviously about protecting the organization from legal liability. It goes on and on about how litigious our society is and how opposers will want to enforce what they perceive as their "rights" - with "rights" always in scare quotes, to dismiss the idea that they actually exist. And then it went on to say that this is why elders have to keep judicial proceedings and related matters confidential. They were concerned about being sued for defamation and the like by people who were disgrunted over judicial matters.
In retrospect, that was not the best strategy in terms of shielding the organization and congregations from liability, but there was certainly enough there for Simons to argue that minimizing liability was a motive in forming their policy. He used the letter -effectively, I think - to rebut the argument that the confidentiality policy served a doctrinal purpose, and instead to argue that it served a financial one.
I have read the 1989 letter to the BOE. It seems like it is talking about protecting the org. from legal liability regarding a person’s legal rights “ Ill advised statements or actions can be interpreted as violating other’s rights”....” While we as Christians are ready to forgive others who may wrong us, those in the world are not so inclined. Worldly persons are quick to resort to lawsuits if they feel their rights have been violated”. . I wonder, if since all of the pedophile lawsuits have been made well after 1989, what were these lawsuits mentioned in the letter about?
The whole gist of the letter does not seem to involve child molesting at all. Only one short paragraph devoted to it states this: “Many states have child abuse reporting laws. When elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society’s Legal Department immediately. Victims of such abuse need to be protected from further danger. See “If the worst should happen” Awake January 22 1985 page 8” which says:
However, if molestation—and especially incest—is discovered to have occurred, two things must be done immediately:
First, the child—and other children too—must be protected from any further abuse. This must be done, whatever the cost. In many cases the accused molester will have to be confronted. But whatever it takes, it is important that the child should feel confident that the molester will never be able to get at her (or him) again.
Second, the child must be given a lot of love and emotional support. Parents must make it very clear that the little victim is not to blame. The crime and anything that happens as a result of it—even if a close relative goes to prison—is not her (or his) fault. But that reassurance will have to be given many times, so that the victim comes to believe it—and to believe that the parents believe it too!
Further the letter states: “Many of these lawsuits are as a result of a miss use of tongue.” This does not indicate that this is referring to a child molester accusation lawsuit at all.
Actually I am inclined to believe your statement regarding Rick Simmons: “. He used the letter -effectively, I think - to rebut the argument that the confidentiality policy served a doctrinal purpose, and instead to argue that it served a financial one”. And also I think to make it look like it pertained to child molesting cases too.
I think it is pretty clear from the letter that protecting child molesters to avoid lawsuits (by child molesters) was not even a small part of this letter. In all practical logic, would a proven child molester have any grounds for a lawsuit at all??? Would any lawyer even attempt to defend a known child molester??? I know the WTS has made mistakes, but are you saying they are so dumb to think that reporting known child molesters would open them up to a lawsuit? As you say, the concern was over "individuals being disgruntled over judicial matters", of which I doubt convicted child molesters played any role.
In retrospect, that was not the best strategy in terms of shielding the organization and congregations from liabilityProof that the letter was not meant to shield the org. or congregations from the kind of liability we are talking about!
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Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14
by Chaserious inwith hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Vidiot
There is another, darker possibility, however...
This wasn't as well-documented at the time, but by now, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the sexual victimization of young people becomes institutionalized and endemic within authoritarian hierarchies (religious or secular) due to a number of fundamental characteristics; lack of transparency and the democratic process, disdain for outward authority, a sense of infallibility and/or exclusivity, etc.
It's virtually unavoidable, and, in fact, the only way to prevent it is to, ultimately, not be an authoritarian hierarchy.
This is not a foregone conclusion at all, I would like to know where you got this info from. Maybe you would like to post a link to these findings? All the material I have read shows that child molestation and paedophilia are impossible to categorize into a specific social sphere. There are many theories out there but no real conclusions. In fact one of the articles describes a typical pedophile as the “clean, all American boy”. You are concentrating on one organization, the JWs. Facts show that the problem of paedophilia is a problem in all societal structures regardless of race, social standing or religion. I would guess your theories are based on your disdain and bias towards JWs and your sweeping statement: “in fact, the only way to prevent it is to, ultimately, not be an authoritarian hierarchy” is rather silly!
Parents wanting to protect their kids from sex offenders in their congregations would ultimately walk out en masse, partly out of shame for having been associated with such an organization, but even more so because of the very real possibility that they'd be unable to find other congregations which were offender-free environments.*
Know how I know? 'Cause I have kids, and it's what I would have done.
Not to be disrespectful, but you are not exactly a reliable measuring gauge when it comes to leaving the organization as you have evidently left it anyway, regardless of the issue under discussion.
In fact I do not think anyone would leave en masse at all if pedophiles was identified as being in their midst. In fact, I think that when this new policy is actually put in practice, it will make the pedophiles leave the organization, knowing they no longer have a “field” to work in because they are now identified by name.
Not to mention that the dwindling pool of "qualified" brothers willing to take on congregational duties has - I'm certain - forced the WTS to backpedal on their previously-held policy of not permitting former offenders to serve in an MS or Elder capacity.
Well you are wrong there and it is merely your opinion. The facts are that child molesters will never be able to serve in any capacity ever.
All in all your arguments are not well though out and are actually none arguments and are evidently the result of your strong bias. As for Irwin Zalkin, he has no idea what he is talking about and says the kind of things a lawyer would say to further his case.... lawyer style. He has to make a living too. Sexual victimization of young people has become institutionalized and endemic in the whole of society world wide. Instead of apostate websites why don't you actually read some secular articles on pedophilia and child molesting? This might put things into proper perspective for you. Here are some links:
http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html
http://www.csom.org/train/etiology/3/3_1.htm
And if you really want to dig your teeth in to something scholastic then try reading this book and then come back to me with your simplistic theories.
http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf
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Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14
by Chaserious inwith hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.
i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.
it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Chaserious
Thank you or your reply and for the explaining the definition of legal “recklessness.”
Putting the law aside, and just looking at this from a common-sense point of view, anyone who has been a JW knows that the elders will do whatever those higher up in the chain of command tell them to do, whether that's the CO, letters from the branch, WT legal, etc. So whether or not they believed he was going to re-offend, I think that the most reasonable assumption is that they would do whatever they were directed to doYes, I know the elders would do as they are directed by the WTS, but if the elders were worried, wouldn’t this have come across in their letter to the WTS? I have not seen the correspondence between the Fremont cong and the WTS but it seems like the WTS had to base their decision on something (since they were not personally involved with the situation). Is it possible that the WTS also believed things were taken care of?
People who are trying not to bring shame on their organization and are trying to minimize liability - that's who.
That’s what I don’t get. How does one “minimize liability" by not reporting cases of child molestation? Please explain that to me in legal terms, as a lawyer.
What is the purpose of letters to the bodies of elders telling them to call Watchtower legal when child abuse occurs? Is it really to protect anyone besides the Watchtower? They don't have to call legal in cases of fornication or drug abuse, do they?
From reading the new instructions to the BOE (2012) I would say that the purpose of that would be to protect the congregation, so that if anything goes wrong, the WTS is liable and not the congregation because it had merely followed the directions of the WTS. So any responsibility of future cases of child molestation rests squarely with the WTS. My thoughts anyway.
A reasonable conclusion (and I think the one that was arrived at in this case) is that this process was in place to attempt to protect the organization from bad publicity and legal liability, with any concern for protecting children a distant afterthought, even though headquarters knew or should have known that its policy was not in the best interests of the children.
.....it disregarded a significant risk of harm, and put concern for its image above legitimate safety measures.
I know what you are saying here, but I don’t understand how telling others in the congregation about a pedophile in their midst (the safety measure) would have been bad for WTS image? I believe most members of the congregation are aware that there are some among them who bring reproach to the Witnesses (ranging from sins such as fornication and adultery to crimes such as theft and murder. There was a “brother” who ran a brothel in one European country). Elders do not stop anyone from going to the police if that someone thinks a crime has been committed. For instance if a “brother” broke into my home I would call the police. It goes without saying. Then I would tell the elders. So I honestly do not understand why not informing that there is a pedophile in the congregation has anything to do with image and bad publicity. (Unless there is another reason). Perhaps you can explain that to me.
I apologize for asking all these questions, and I appreciate your patience in answering.