@ Memphis are you saying the FBI are "afraid" of religious institutions more than they are of the government? Because the FBI has investigated government insiders. There is nothing stopping the FBI from investigating WTS insiders. Or are you saying that they do not have the power to investigate a serious allegation? Do you think they could not find a legal loophole allowing them to do an investigation if they thought it was necessary?
Nitty-Gritty
JoinedPosts by Nitty-Gritty
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47
A few facts to ponder
by Nitty-Gritty ini have been in correspondence recently with silentambs and a few interesting things have been highlighted.
some of you may know, that bill bowen has twice tried to get the fbi involved in investigating child molestation issues in the jws org.
this is what he said to me, i quote: we have reported to the fbi on two occasions and were rebuffed due to them not wishing to get involved with a religion.
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47
A few facts to ponder
by Nitty-Gritty ini have been in correspondence recently with silentambs and a few interesting things have been highlighted.
some of you may know, that bill bowen has twice tried to get the fbi involved in investigating child molestation issues in the jws org.
this is what he said to me, i quote: we have reported to the fbi on two occasions and were rebuffed due to them not wishing to get involved with a religion.
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Nitty-Gritty
sir 82 don't twist my words. I never said they accept child abuse, I said they accept it is a problem.
As for Bill Bowen, you better say that to all his fans, most of who are victims of child abuse.
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Do you feel vindicated by the exposure of the WT Society in Australia? It seems like a feeding frenzy on here! I love it. You?
by Wasanelder Once inare you pleased with the exposure of the society in australia?
do you feel personally vindicated by it?
do you think it gives you credibility with others now that all the things you said were going on, actually are documented?
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Mad
Yes, you are right, it is not up to the elders to determine whether the allegation has substance. What I was trying to say was that if an actual law is passed, where it is not an option to report or not to report (and I mean by anyone, even the victim, and not just JW) such as it is with murder, where would the RC draw the line, if anywhere?
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A few facts to ponder
by Nitty-Gritty ini have been in correspondence recently with silentambs and a few interesting things have been highlighted.
some of you may know, that bill bowen has twice tried to get the fbi involved in investigating child molestation issues in the jws org.
this is what he said to me, i quote: we have reported to the fbi on two occasions and were rebuffed due to them not wishing to get involved with a religion.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Memphis
By gaining access to documents they can do both, highlight institutional failure and civil negligence AND focus on individual offenders. They have done it before. The question is, why do they not want to do that?
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104
Do you feel vindicated by the exposure of the WT Society in Australia? It seems like a feeding frenzy on here! I love it. You?
by Wasanelder Once inare you pleased with the exposure of the society in australia?
do you feel personally vindicated by it?
do you think it gives you credibility with others now that all the things you said were going on, actually are documented?
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Nitty-Gritty
@ loveuni
Suppose the Commission hands the following rule to the WTS: regardless of whether there were two witnesses or not, regardless of whether it is a reporting state or not, if an elder receives an allegation of abuse he must immediately tell police before he does anything else.
Would this rule be in conflict with bible principles/rules?
Would the WTS happily comply with this?
I don't want to speak for the WTS, but it would seem that this would not conflict with Bible principles/rules as we are talking about a crime, and a crime should be reported to the Police.
Of course there is the issue of should every allegation be reported to the police, and what makes an allegation worthy of a report? This is a problem which secular authorities are working on, to reasonably figure out. It's complicated.
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A few facts to ponder
by Nitty-Gritty ini have been in correspondence recently with silentambs and a few interesting things have been highlighted.
some of you may know, that bill bowen has twice tried to get the fbi involved in investigating child molestation issues in the jws org.
this is what he said to me, i quote: we have reported to the fbi on two occasions and were rebuffed due to them not wishing to get involved with a religion.
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Nitty-Gritty
I have been in correspondence recently with Silentambs and a few interesting things have been highlighted. Some of you may know, that Bill Bowen has twice tried to get the FBI involved in investigating child molestation issues in the JWs org. This is what he said to me, I quote: “WE have reported to the FBI on two occasions and were rebuffed due to them not wishing to get involved with a religion”.
Now you tell me, you big thinkers out there, why do you think the FBI really does not want to get involved? Is it because they don’t want to get involved with a religion? No, of course not. Religion has never stopped the FBI from investigating anything before. If there is a suspicion of a cover up of criminal activity as Bill Bowen claims there is, I quote: “The WT database contains the cover up of criminal
activity with the pedophiles being protected and children being put at risk” the FBI WILL investigate, religion or no religion. That is their job! So, what is the logical conclusion? Obviously, Bill Bowen does not have good enough substance to his claims in order for the FBI to be concerned.For those who doubt the FBI’s concern for the welfare of children and want to pooh poo this go to their website:
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac
Also, for those who may not know this, according to Bill Bowen, he has never said the WTS org. should publish the names of pedophiles in their “secret” database (as he has is own database where he keeps the names of alleged pedophiles secret). However, he also said: “This number will only grow and continue to expose children to danger since Watchtower's policy of keeping molester's names confidential has created a "pedophile paradise." So which is it?
Also, sorry to disappoint you, but most “worldly” people are not going to be “put off” by the JWs because of child molestation issues as they know this is prevalent in all society, and I hate to say it this way, but they accept this is a problem everywhere where there are people. Also they tend to be much more objective when it comes to sensational headlines such as “cover up” etc. It is only you guys who think more into this. Further, many JWs are aware of this problem just as I am, and are eager to see it completely stopped in the near future.
Lastly, it is quite disturbing to see how you all have gloated over the Australian “expose” of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding child molestation issues, (although it is not an expose at all as I have explained in a few other threads) instead of focusing on the good that will hopefully come out of this in helping to better protect children, as this is the objective of the Royal Commission.
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Do you feel vindicated by the exposure of the WT Society in Australia? It seems like a feeding frenzy on here! I love it. You?
by Wasanelder Once inare you pleased with the exposure of the society in australia?
do you feel personally vindicated by it?
do you think it gives you credibility with others now that all the things you said were going on, actually are documented?
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Nitty-Gritty
@ sir82 I'm struggling to think of any precedent of the WTS "happily" complying with anything that "worldly" governments have imposed upon them. Perhaps an example or 2 would help.
Simple answer to that one, as long as it is not in conflict with Bible principles (Acts 5:29) the WTS has ALWAYS happily complied with whatever "worldly" governments have "imposed" on them as per Romans 13:1.
I highly doubt that any rules that come about from this investigation will conflict with Bible principles.
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What are the possible end results from the RC?
by Bob Loblaw insorry if this has already been discussed, but,...besides, of course, a black eye on the org, what can come of this royal commission hearing legally or criminally?
according to the rc's website:.
"the royal commission holds formal public hearings to hear evidence about child sexual abuse within institutions.
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Nitty-Gritty
(Sorry, I know I have posted it several times, but it applies here too).
The purpose of the Royal Commission is to analyze and make a comprehensive report on how child abuse has been handled on the whole by various institutions ranging from religious and recreational establishments through to schools etc. in order to establish how best to prevent, and/or handle child abuse in the future. In their own words: "Drawing upon the experience of individuals and the investigation of systemic issues, we are required to make recommendations that will provide a just response for people who have been sexually abused and ensure institutions achieve best practice in protecting children in the future".
Read interim report:
The purpose of this particular investigation into Jehovah's Witnesses is not to single them out and punish them, but as with the previous investigations of other institutions (so far there have been 29 case studies) it is to identify a weakness and put in place an effective remedy, (just as with all the other institutions). The Australian government has obviously identified a great need as regards the handling of child molestation issues across the whole board. I am sure you are all aware that the problem of abuse has been going on since the beginning of civilization, globally affecting all societies, but only in the last 30 or so years has it begun to get addressed properly. The need for this report itself though highlights that finding a solution has not even reached the tip of the iceberg yet. And of course once found, no solution will be truly perfect.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not unique, they are plagued by the same diseases, same worries, same societal issues as everyone else on this planet. This of course includes the societal disease of child molestation. A spiritual paradise does not ensure a trouble free life as all persons are affected by imperfection and the consequences of it. In the cases of child sexual abuse the factors are very complex for all establishments and societies and each case is unique and cannot be put into one basket. Even the fact that a child offender goes behind bars for a few years does not guarantee a permanent solution because the possibility exists that he will re-offend. ...
I have no doubts though that whatever the Australian Commission decides in the way of policies, recommendations and practices to protect children, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be more than happy to comply with them.
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I bet the Elders are really hoping the world ends in the very very near future!!!
by BoxOfRox ini cant wait for this to get bigger and bigger!!!
its sad that all of these people had such horrible things done to them, but now a bunch of crazy old perverts are going to pay for it!
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Nitty-Gritty
The purpose of the Royal Commission is to analyze and make a comprehensive report on how child abuse has been handled on the whole by various institutions ranging from religious and recreational establishments through to schools etc. in order to establish how best to prevent, and/or handle child abuse in the future. In their own words: "Drawing upon the experience of individuals and the investigation of systemic issues, we are required to make recommendations that will provide a just response for people who have been sexually abused and ensure institutions achieve best practice in protecting children in the future".
Read interim report:
The purpose of this particular investigation into Jehovah's Witnesses is not to single them out and punish them, but as with the previous investigations of other institutions (so far there have been 29 case studies) it is to identify a weakness and put in place an effective remedy, (just as with all the other institutions). The Australian government has obviously identified a great need as regards the handling of child molestation issues across the whole board. I am sure you are all aware that the problem of abuse has been going on since the beginning of civilization, globally affecting all societies, but only in the last 30 or so years has it begun to get addressed properly. The need for this report itself though highlights that finding a solution has not even reached the tip of the iceberg yet. And of course once found, no solution will be truly perfect.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not unique, they are plagued by the same diseases, same worries, same societal issues as everyone else on this planet. This of course includes the societal disease of child molestation. A spiritual paradise does not ensure a trouble free life as all persons are affected by imperfection and the consequences of it. In the cases of child sexual abuse the factors are very complex for all establishments and societies and each case is unique and cannot be put into one basket. Even the fact that a child offender goes behind bars for a few years does not guarantee a permanent solution because the possibility exists that he will re-offend. ...
I have no doubts though that whatever the Australian Commission decides in the way of policies, recommendations and practices to protect children, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be more than happy to comply with them.
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How many of the 1.006 alleged abusers will be investigated by Police?
by Listener inthe commission has the names of 1,006 alleged abusers within australian congregations since 1950. some will have died and others will already have been prosecuted but the branch did not report any of these allegations to police.. the terms of reference for the royal commission is more about redress for the victims but that can include criminal prosecution although they are more focused on financial compensation.. however, now that they have the names of 1,006 potential criminals there is some responsibility to see that they are dealt with criminally.
it appears to be in their authority to have cases followed through by referring them for further investigation.
this is clear because the commissioner has recently reported that to date, they have done so in 493 cases identified within the scope of their commission.
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Nitty-Gritty
@ Listener
Yeah, I saw that part too. The good thing is there are transcripts available after each day as well...