leaving_quietly

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Posts by leaving_quietly

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  36

  On What Date Did Watchtower Have THE TRUTH?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if a jw tries to gather you back to the flock or debate with you, try these questions:.

  on what date did the watchtower arrive at the truth?.

  (a sharp jw will try to be fuzzy.

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  leaving_quietly

  marking
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  86

  Since Great Crowd has no mediator

  by sosoconfused in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am thinking that maybe i missed this discussion or something.

  now for years in the org i never ever paid attention to the article that says jesus is the mediator for the 144000 alone.

  yesterday talking to my 70+ year old dad he got violently angry with me and threw his cane at me because he said i was a liar.. .

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  leaving_quietly

  So, they would like more recent information? Ok:

  w09 4/15 p. 27 par. 14,15:

  Like Moses, Jesus was a mediator. A mediator acts as a bridge between two parties. Moses mediated the Law covenant between Jehovah and the Israelites. If the sons of Jacob obeyed the laws of God, they would remain God’s special property, his congregation. (Ex. 19:3-8) That covenant stayed in force from 1513 B.C.E. until the first century C.E.

  
  

  15 In 33 C.E., Jehovah initiated a better covenant with a new Israel, “the Israel of God,” which became a worldwide congregation made up of anointed Christians. (Gal. 6:16) While the covenant mediated by Moses included laws written by God on stone, the covenant mediated by Jesus is superior. Its laws are inscribed by God on human hearts. (Read 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:10.) Thus, “the Israel of God” is now God’s special property, ‘a nation producing the fruits’ of the Messianic Kingdom. (Matt. 21:43) Members of that spiritual nation are the participants in that new covenant. Still, they are not the only ones to benefit from it. Untold multitudes, even many who at present are asleep in death, will receive everlasting blessings because of that superlative covenant.

  
  

  w08 12/15 pp 13-14 par. 11-14:

  11 Read 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Jesus is the “one mediator between God and men.” He is “the mediator of a new covenant.” (Heb. 9:15; 12:24) However, Moses is also spoken of as a mediator—the mediator of the Law covenant. (Gal. 3:19) How, then, is Jesus’ role as Mediator unique?

  12 The original-language word translated “mediator” is a legal term. It refers to Jesus as a legal Mediator (or, in a sense, an attorney) of the new covenant that made possible the birth of a new nation, “the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:16) This nation is composed of spirit-anointed Christians, who form a heavenly “royal priesthood.” (1 Pet. 2:9; Ex. 19:6) The Law covenant, with Moses as mediator, was not able to produce a nation like that.

  13 What does Jesus’ role as Mediator involve? Well, Jehovah applies the value of Jesus’ blood to those being brought into the new covenant. In this way, Jehovah legally credits them with righteousness. (Rom. 3:24; Heb. 9:15) God can then take them into the new covenant with the prospect of their becoming heavenly king-priests! As their Mediator, Jesus assists them in maintaining a clean standing before God.—Heb. 2:16.

  14 What about those who are not in the new covenant, those who hope to live forever on earth, not in heaven? While not participants in the new covenant, these are beneficiaries of it. They receive forgiveness of their sins and are declared righteous as God’s friends. (Jas. 2:23; 1 John 2:1, 2) Whether we have a heavenly hope or an earthly hope, each one of us has good reason to appreciate Jesus’ role as the Mediator of the new covenant.
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  3

  A knock-down argument against the WBTS interpretation of Daniel 7:13,14 to support 1914!

  by yadda yadda 2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the watchtower society still officially teaches that daniel 2:44 is fulfilled in the future at armageddon while in the same breath asserting that daniel 7:13,14 was fulfilled in 1914. note the following paragraphs from chapter 10 of the "worship god" book, recently studied by all jehovah's witnesses:.

  "3. learning about god's kingdom is of the greatest urgency now, as soon that kingdom will take action to change forever the rulership of this earth.

  daniel 2:44 foretells: "in the days of those kings [governments now ruling] the god of heaven will set up a kingdom [in heaven] that will never be brought to ruin.

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  leaving_quietly

  Paragraph 4, the first sentence, of the reference you quoted admits that Dan 2:44 applies to 1914. But, there are two parts to the verse: first, setting up the kingdom (done in 1914, according to WTS), then that kingdom crushes and puts and end to all these kingdoms (future, according to WTS). This is how I've always understood this verse.
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  86

  Since Great Crowd has no mediator

  by sosoconfused in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am thinking that maybe i missed this discussion or something.

  now for years in the org i never ever paid attention to the article that says jesus is the mediator for the 144000 alone.

  yesterday talking to my 70+ year old dad he got violently angry with me and threw his cane at me because he said i was a liar.. .

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  leaving_quietly

  WTS confuses the word "mediator" and applies 1 Tim 2:5 in two different ways. First, "mediator" in the sense of mediator of the New Covenant. This, WTS says, is what Jesus is the mediator of only for the 144,000. Second, "mediator" as a go-between in prayer. This, WTS says, applies to everyone, which is why JWs always say, 'in Jesus name' at the end of their prayers.

  *** w97 2/15 p. 28 Agreement Between “God’s Temple” and Idols in Greece? ***
  Furthermore, in a very clear way, the Scriptures rule out the idea of praying to “saints” in order for them to act as intercessors with God. In his model prayer, Jesus taught that prayers are to be addressed to the Father only, since he directed his disciples: “You must pray, then, this way: ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.’” (Matthew 6:9) Jesus further stated: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” And the apostle Paul stated: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”—John 14:6, 14; 1 Timothy 2:5.

  If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, it is essential that we approach him in the way that his Word directs. Stressing the only valid way to approach Jehovah, Paul also wrote: “Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.” “He is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.”—Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25.
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  40

  Subtle wording in today's study article (3/15/13 WT)

  by leaving_quietly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par.

  "first, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of jehovah will be saved.

  ' (rom.

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  leaving_quietly

  NJY:

  Hellooo? What about the part where they actually changed the scripture to make their edit correct, grammatically.

  LOL! Didn't mean to gloss over that. You're right. They could have just quoted the scripture in question. This is the whole subtlety of it. For instance, this would have worked just as well:

  "First, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.' (Rom. 10:13)"

  Then, of course, we would be having the Jehovah vs. Jesus discussion.

  In this case, the author used single quotes around the verse instead of double-quotes. This is important because it denotes more of a paraphrasing than an actual quote. So, we can SAY they changed the scripture, when in reality, they covered themselves by using single quotes. Yes, it's still changing things to suit their own escathology. I've just learned to pay close attention, even to punctuation and quote marks.
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  40

  Subtle wording in today's study article (3/15/13 WT)

  by leaving_quietly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par.

  "first, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of jehovah will be saved.

  ' (rom.

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  leaving_quietly

  Phizzy:

  Paul used the Septuagint where the word Kyrios would have appeared in Joel in his copy, so "LORD" was in his mind as he wrote, not Yahweh, so the WT's argument falls.

  In the article there was a footnote that claimed there is evidence that the early Septuagint copies actually contained the Tetragrammaton. Of course, they provided no such evidence in the article, so I whipped out my trusty Google search box and typed in "Septuagint Tetragrammaton". Lo' and behold, there actually appears to be such evidence. It seems possible, based on what I found, that Paul may very well have had the Paleo-Hebrew form of the Tetragrammaton instead of Kyrios. The Septuagint was a Greek Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it appears the Tetragrammaton was preserved in its Hebrew form within the Greek text. I tried hard to make sure the sources of this information were non-JW. I can't validate any of it, of course, but you can look and decide for yourself.
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  40

  Subtle wording in today's study article (3/15/13 WT)

  by leaving_quietly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par.

  "first, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of jehovah will be saved.

  ' (rom.

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  leaving_quietly

  BU2B:

  It's not just JWs who believe Jehovah (or Yahweh) should be in this verse. The Aramaic Bible in Plain English has this: "“For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”"

  Also, interesting writeup here: http://www.rlbible.com/jesus/?p=343 (not affiliated with JWs, according to their site)

  Like I said, though, there's plenty of discussion about this, so I'm not about to debate it one way or another. I believe both in God and his Christ. I have learned over the past few months just how badly JWs dishonor the Christ. To me the issue isn't about the name "Jehovah". It's that in saying 'Jehovah this' and 'Jehovah that' with little or no credence to the name of God's Son as a means of salvation, that is where the real problem lies.

  Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another, just as he gave us commandment.
  - 1 John 3:23

  Hamsterbait:

  As the verse says "there is NO other name under heaven by which we are to be saved."

  This is from Acts 4:12. I would add Phil. 2:9-11:

  For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

  (Note "other" in brackets... not in the Greek text)

  JW Gonebad and Pistoff:

  Keep in mind the stated reason WHY the NWT Translation Committee has put Jehovah here. Anywhere there was a quote from the Hebrew scriptures, they assume the author included the divine name.

  Interesting document regarding the name Jehovah in the NWT: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/170997

  Data-Dog:

  Only Christ can wake them up. We can carefully ( Jesus said to watch out for yourselves ) bring up bits of truth.
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  40

  Subtle wording in today's study article (3/15/13 WT)

  by leaving_quietly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par.

  "first, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of jehovah will be saved.

  ' (rom.

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  leaving_quietly

  It's like offering a free gift by phone for everyone who calls, but the people receiving the gift are still the only ones who called.

  I agree with this, which is why Christ repeatedly said "come to me". Salvation is a free gift, but only available to those who come to Christ to get it.

  My point here was to point out the wording to show "exclusivity". I won't argue whether Romans 10:13 should read "Jehovah" or "Jesus". There's plenty of discussion on the interwebs supporting both views. I'm not going to get into that discussion. However, the wording in the article leads the typical JW to believe that ONLY they will be saved because ONLY they call upon Jehovah's name (that's the idea WT wants to get across). Nevermind that the name isn't pronounced right (which they admit earlier in the article) and nevermind that many others call upon the Father by other names (e.g. Yahweh, Jahveh, YHWN, Elohim, Adonai, etc.) Paul said "everyone" who does so, not just JWs.
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  40

  Subtle wording in today's study article (3/15/13 WT)

  by leaving_quietly in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par.

  "first, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of jehovah will be saved.

  ' (rom.

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  leaving_quietly

  w13 3/15 p. 28 par. 17:

  "First, we must proclaim that name to others, recognizing that only those who 'call on the name of Jehovah will be saved.' (Rom. 10:13)"

  (Emphasis mine)

  Rom 10:13 says: "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”" (Emphasis mine)

  There's a big difference between "only" and "everyone".

  on·ly

  Adverb

  And no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively: "there are only a limited number of tickets available".

  eve·ry·one

  Pronoun

  Every person.
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  66

  Another Newbie

  by Skinnedsheep in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recently came to the realization that the organization is corrupt and is false.

  my story is similar to many i think.

  i was raised in the religion, pioneered and served as an elder for a number of years.

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  leaving_quietly

  Welcome! I resigned as an elder for the same reasons as you. I still attend regularly. I rarely comment. I still participate in the field ministry, though as little as possible without raising suspicions. I'm not ready to leave family and friends behind, yet. I study as I've never studied before. I have read the Bible all the way through, but a different translation, not NWT. I question everything.

  Let's just say it boils down to this for me: WTS is very much an OT religion. The leadership has put themselves in the seat of Christ. They put Christ in a secondary position, when the scriptures clearly state that all authority has been given him in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28:18) And, honor the son just as one honors the Father. (John 2:22,23)

  The latest teachings shows clearly that they simply do not have Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit would not mislead millions of people who, for the most part, really do desire to serve God properly.