Posts by leaving

5

More Bible Contradictions

by srd in

jw
friends

we've been posting 1 a day since 1/2013 at http://contradictionsinthebible.com .

we are now at #60 -- another contradiction created when the later priestly text was redacted into the earlier yahwist and elohist texts.

the priestly author had a unique narrative chronology and interest in deathm marriage, travel, and settlement notices.

leaving_quietly

srd, I thought about you when I stumbled upon this site a couple of days ago.

I was researching what the term "word of God" meant. The Bible? or Jesus? (John 1:1) No conclusion there, yet.

JW's get a mention.

http://www.guidedways.com/articles/isbiblewordofgod.php

28

For those still "in"... is it just me?

by leaving_quietly in

jw
friends

i'm still "in" and i've noticed an odd trend recently.

conversations with jws seem to be more jw-ish than ever!

in normal conversation, i'll hear: "these watchtowers are just wonderful!

Interesting comments... maybe it is just me. Even those that once (and currently still do) complain about some aspect of the organization have seemed to go into this uber-JW mode. One elder, a very nice brother, generally quiet, one who I would consider one of my closest friends (we'd be closer if I could be open with him, but alas, I cannot be), recently made a couple of comments during the meeting that make me perk up a bit and wonder, 'where did THAT come from'? He's never been overly expressive about the organization, but this one went over the top, and it kinda shook me up a bit. My one of my relatives recently did the same thing and he complains a LOT about the org. It's been a strange few weeks. Maybe it is that I'm just now noticing how crazy it all seems.

28

For those still "in"... is it just me?

by leaving_quietly in

jw
friends

i'm still "in" and i've noticed an odd trend recently.

conversations with jws seem to be more jw-ish than ever!

in normal conversation, i'll hear: "these watchtowers are just wonderful!

leaving_quietly

I'm still "in" and I've noticed an odd trend recently. Conversations with JWs seem to be more JW-ish than ever! In normal conversation, I'll hear: "These Watchtowers are just wonderful! Wonderful gifts from God!" Even those who used to complain are drinking the Kool-Aid like never before. Is it just me? Anyone else noticing this?

80

I am totally confoused who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class?

by booker-t in

i have been hearing and reading on websites about some "new light" jws are saying concerning the faithful and discreet slave class.

it sounds like the same information they have been saying for years.

i was always taught the faithful and discreet slave class is the annoited governing body members dispensing food at the proper time for the non annoited jws.

leaving_quietly

Now the domestics are anointed and great crowd/other sheep obeying the F&DS (which is the GB only)

And I would point out that since the new teaching is such that the F&DS has not yet been appointed over all of Christ's belongings, this statement in w09 2/15 p. 26 par. 9 is now incorrect: "Included among these belongings are the facilities at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses, at branch offices in various lands, and at Assembly Halls and Kingdom Halls worldwide. Included too is the work of Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making."

This means that if WTS tries another KH grab, like Menlo Park, they don't even have a theological leg to stand on.

73

Ok I need some advice on how to decline an elder's appointment....

by suavojr in

jw
friends

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in the last 4 months my eyes have been opened to ttatt, my biggest issue is that the elders have been grooming me to appoint me as an elder.

leaving_quietly

When they ask if there's any reason you should not accept the appointment, just tell them "I'm currently dealing with some personal health issues that I'd rather keep private and I don't want to add any more stresses than I have to at the moment, but thank you for considering me."

(This has the side effect of prepping them for you stepping down as an MS in the future.)

7

What is so big about 400 languages?

by Roberta804 in

in order to ease into the internet world it seems the printing company is capitolizing on being able to provide their message in 400 languages.

i do not see what the big deal is all about.

.

leaving_quietly

So that Rev 7:9 could be fulfilled: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

80

I am totally confoused who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class?

by booker-t in

i have been hearing and reading on websites about some "new light" jws are saying concerning the faithful and discreet slave class.

it sounds like the same information they have been saying for years.

i was always taught the faithful and discreet slave class is the annoited governing body members dispensing food at the proper time for the non annoited jws.

leaving_quietly

How about a little history lesson?

w07 11/1 pp. 29-30 par. 12: "A second example of deep things that have been revealed to us concerns God’s purpose to select 144,000 from among mankind. (Revelation 14:1, 4) We accept the teaching that all of the anointed ones living on earth at any given time constitute “the faithful and discreet slave” that Jesus said would provide timely “food” for his domestics. "

w07 11/1 pp. 29-30 par. 13: "Later that same day, when Jesus asked: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” he was in effect asking, ‘What discreet nation will replace Israel to be God’s faithful slave?’ The apostle Peter gave the answer when he told the congregation of anointed Christians: “You are . . . ‘a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 1:4; 2:9) That spiritual nation, “the Israel of God,” became Jehovah’s new slave. (Galatians 6:16) Just as all members of ancient Israel formed one “servant,” so also all anointed Christians on earth at any one time form one “faithful and discreet slave.” What a privilege it is for us to receive “food” through God’s slave!"

w08 1/15 p. 24 par. 1: "GOD’S WORD identifies anointed Christians who are caring for Christ’s interests on earth as “the faithful and discreet slave.” When Christ inspected the “slave” in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual “food at the proper time.” Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them “over all his belongings.”"

w08 5/15 p. 29: "THE Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses consists of dedicated men who are anointed servants of God. They act as representatives of the faithful and discreet slave class, which has the responsibility of providing spiritual food and giving direction and impetus to the Kingdom-preaching work throughout the earth.—Matt. 24:14, 45-47."

w09 1/15 p. 31 par. 2: "In 1919, Jesus placed “the key of the house of David” upon the shoulder of “the faithful and discreet slave” by appointing that slave class “over all his belongings.”"

w09 2/15 p. 24 par. 2: "What can be said about the anointed Christians in modern times? In his prophecy about “the sign of [his] presence and of the conclusion of the system of things,” Jesus referred to the composite body of his spirit-anointed followers on earth as “the faithful and discreet slave,” or “the faithful steward.” (Matt. 24:3, 45; Luke 12:42) As a group, the slave class has established an excellent record of “following the Lamb no matter where he goes.”"

w09 2/15 p. 28 par. 17: "The faithful and discreet slave today is represented by the Governing Body, who take the lead and coordinate the Kingdom-preaching work throughout the earth."

w09 6/15 p. 22 par. 11: "Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 24:45 clearly indicate that there would still be a faithful and discreet slave class living on earth during the time of the end. Revelation 12:17 refers to these ones as “the remaining ones” of the seed of the woman. As a group, this remnant has been appointed over all of Christ’s belongings here on earth. The “belongings” that the faithful steward is appointed to care for are the Master’s royal interests on earth, which include the Kingdom’s earthly subjects and the material facilities used in preaching the good news."

w09 6/16 p. 24 par. 19: "As part of the King’s belongings, they are happy to cooperate fully with the arrangements made by the Governing Body, which represents “the faithful and discreet slave.”"

w09 10/15 p. 5 par. 10: "Those with an earthly hope should, therefore, recognize Christ as their Head and be submissive to the faithful and discreet slave and its Governing Body and to the men appointed as overseers in the congregation."

w09 10/15 p. 15 par. 14: "One way is to obey the direction provided by the faithful and discreet slave class, which consists of Jesus’ spirit-anointed brothers still alive on earth."

w09 11/15 p. 14 par. 3: "One way to find our place in the congregation and give evidence that we treasure it is to cooperate fully with “the faithful and discreet slave” and its representative Governing Body."

w10 1/15 p. 31 par. 14: "A few anointed members of “the Israel of God” still remain, and as Jesus’ brothers, they continue to act as “ambassadors substituting for Christ.” (2 Cor. 5:20) They have been appointed as a faithful and discreet slave class to care for and provide spiritual food for anointed ones and a growing crowd of Christians, who now include millions having the hope of living on earth forever. "

w10 7/15 p. 23 par. 10: "When the time comes to clarify a spiritual matter in our day, holy spirit helps responsible representatives of “the faithful and discreet slave” at world headquarters to discern deep truths that were not previously understood. (Matt. 24:45; 1 Cor. 2:13) The Governing Body as a whole considers adjusted explanations. (Acts 15:6) What they learn, they publish for the benefit of all."

w10 9/15 p. 23 par. 8: "In this time of the end, Christ has committed “all his belongings”—all the earthly interests of the Kingdom—to his “faithful and discreet slave” and its representative Governing Body, a group of anointed Christian men."

w10 9/15 p. 26 par. 4: "As Head of the Christian congregation, Christ has used this “faithful and discreet slave” to administer His Kingdom interests on earth. He has provided direction for the anointed “domestics” and their “other sheep” companions by means of a Governing Body."

w11 7/15 p. 30 par. 9: "In modern times, there have been refinements in our understanding of certain Bible teachings. This should not trouble us; it should bolster our confidence in the faithful and discreet slave class. When representative members of the “slave” discern that our viewpoint on some point of truth needs to be clarified or corrected, they do not hold back from making the adjustment."

October 6, 2012 Annual Meeting

“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”

Jesus was referring, not to an individual, but to a composite “slave”—a group working together as one body. Jesus said that the slave (1) is appointed to a supervisory role “over [the master’s] domestics” and (2) gives the domestics spiritual “food at the proper time.”

From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

23

I have a dumb question re: publishing corp...

by new22day in

many of you refer to wts as a rich publishing corp. since the mags they pass out are free i don't understand how they make money from them?

sorry for the dumb question - curious newbie....

leaving_quietly

Hang on a sec... Some of what has been said in this thread just isn't true. Sorry, gotta call it out. We may be upset with WTS for whatever reason, but let's not misinform folks.

2. JW places a magazine and recieves a $10.00 "donation" which the JW then "donates" to the Worldwide Work at the kingdom hall.

This is a fallacy. Sorry. There was a switch to the donation arrangement in the late 80s or early 90s, and it was due to what frankenspeakie mentioned. For a number of years, there was a big push to ask for a donation while placing the magazines with people. There was never any set amount, so not sure where the $10.00 comes from in the above quote. In recent years, it's rare to hear that from the platform or in any article. Almost no one asks for a donation, at least not in the US. So, how do the books and magazines get covered? By what JWs themselves donate. I have collected donated money from the contribution boxes in the past, and I can tell you it's a mixed bag. Some JWs put in a significant amount on a monthly basis (I've seen checks from $50 to $100). Most put in way, way less. In the Kingdom Hall, there are three separate donation boxes. One for the local Kingdom Hall's expenses, which covers mortgage, utilities, restroom supplies, etc. One for the Worldwide Work, which covers expenses for missionaries, disaster relief, and anything else the corporation deems the money for. And one for the Kingdom Hall construction, a special fund where individuals can donate so that Kingdom Halls can be built in other areas of the world. The congregation I currently attend sends about $700 per month for the Worldwide work and around $400 per month for Kingdom Hall construction. For a congregation with over 100 JWs, that's not all that much per capita.

5. The Watchtower Society pays no car insurance premiums, gas or salary to the JW.

This is true, but the WTS does not benefit monetarily via insurance premiums or fuel when a JW participates in the ministry. This does not answer the original question.

And the Watchtower has had a policy of having people donate their houses and land to the "society" or corporation even before they die ?

I'm not sure where this one comes from. To my knowledge, there is and never has been any such policy. If I'm wrong, please show a quote. There is, however, a Charitable Planning department, and the WTS twice yearly discusses ways JWs can name the WTS as the beneficiary upon death. However, this is completely voluntary.

Are donations voluntary/private? Do people have to contribute or can they get away with no donations and still be a member?

Voluntary, yes. Mostly private, too. Only those handling the accounts (which are generally two men in the congregation, maybe a third as a backup) know what some give if they donate by check. Donations are not required.

Are elders paid?

Not one penny.

Do the members of the Gov Body live modestly (if anyone knows)?

They live as Bethelites, meaning they live at either headquarters or the Patterson Branch in a small, but nice apartment. Their needs are completely taken care of, just as any other person who lives at any Branch around the world. To my knowledge, they do not live in outlandish luxury. They do get paid trips all over the world because they go give talks, visit other Branches, etc., so there are perks. This topic has been discussed on this forum before. You may want to use the search feature.

I wonder where the money goes as the income seems high and costs seems low but many imply their finances may be tight.

Building projects (lots and lots of these), more investments in recent years in audio/video production equipment, ongoing costs in printing, disaster relief effort (mostly to JWs only in disaster areas) and apparently lots into legal.

This doesn't fall into the category of making money, but it is one way that the corporation gets things done at a significantly reduced price. As was mentioned, all labor is free. The distribution of literature: free. Printing production labor: free. Maintenance on corporation owned property: free. Building new Kingdom Halls, Assembly Halls, Branch expansions: all free. JWs generally consider it a privilege to donate their time, money, equipment and expertise to work on these projects. The exception to this is anyone appointed as "International Servants" where they go from country to country to work on these building projects. These are essentially treated as Bethelites in that they get a stipend for living expenses, but at least their travel is paid for. Any involved in international construction projects who are NOT appointed specifically as "International Servants" have to foot the travel expenses themselves, but they usually are housed at the local branch at no cost.

79

WT Flip-Flops on Jesus Inspection Was it in 1918 or 1919?... Did the WT PASS or FAIL?

by Alfred in

this is utterly ridiculous.... .

the more i research this particular subject, the more flip-flops i uncover.

it seems the fds cant even make up their minds regarding what happened in 1918 (or should i say 1919?).

leaving_quietly

Actually, now it's a complete new spin...

"New light" at the Annual Meeting is that the inspection hasn't happened yet, so there was never any pass or fail to begin with.

http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/

When Does Jesus Appoint the Slave “Over All His Belongings”?

Jesus said that the “master on arriving” (literally, “having come”) will appoint the slave “over all his belongings.” When does the Master, Jesus, arrive?

The expression translated “on arriving” is a form of the Greek word er′kho·mai. Verses 42 and 44 of chapter 24 translate a form of er′kho·mai as “coming.” In those verses, Jesus is referring to his coming as Judge during the great tribulation.—Matthew 24:30; 25:31, 32.

Jesus’ appointment of the “slave” over his “belongings,” then, must also be a future event. He will make that appointment during the great tribulation.

22

Why Watchtower fights dirty in its war against "apostates"

by cedars in

i've just finished putting together an article that attempts to articulate the frustrations faced by those like me in the "apostate" community who are increasingly frustrated by the watchtower's use of dirty tricks in its fight against them.. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/secrecy-and-deception-watchtower-fights-dirty-in-its-war-against-apostates.

ordinary witnesses are unaware that the watchtower is not fighting apostates on a level playing field.

i highlight three key areas in which this is so.... 1. the huge disparity in how information is presented (i.e.

leaving_quietly

They don't just mudsling against and villify "apostates". The very first quote you used has this: "Noticeably, there have been a number of individuals who have created Web sites ostensibly to preach the good news. Many of these sites are sponsored by indiscreet brothers."

Were they saying back in '99 that preaching on the internet was indiscreet? Yet now the faithful and "discreet" slave does the very same thing?

leaving_quietly

Posts by leaving_quietly

“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”

When Does Jesus Appoint the Slave “Over All His Belongings”?