leaving_quietly

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Posts by leaving_quietly

• 
  211

  “New light” Watchtower magazine leaked from organization weeks ahead of general release

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://jwsurvey.org/governing-body-2/new-light-watchtower-magazine-leaked-from-organization-weeks-ahead-of-general-release.

  if doctrinal explanations are missing from the article, it is because they are also missing from the magazine.. i would like to give my thanks again to my source for supplying me with the magazine article weeks ahead of its scheduled release.

  it showed remarkable courage, because risks were taken.

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  leaving_quietly

  Wow. Oh, wow. Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow.

  Thank you, Cedars, for preparing this. Definitely full of surprises.
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  12

  Do you think that generally there is a fall in interest in the 'memorial'(TM) of late?

  by punkofnice in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i remember the days when the mock the christ ritual memorial would have the kingdum hell brimming.. i haven't been for at least 2 years.....and i'll never go again unless i'm offered a substantial amount of money to do so.. the last mock the christ memorial i went to the side rooms were used but the hall still had spare seats.. i know the overall speed of the 'growth(tm)' seems to be slackenning off so i guess the pass the cutlery ritual will be in decline by way of attendance too.. i think some of the peak in attendance was where kingdum hells were merged.. what say you?.

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  leaving_quietly

  Our cong. had it's largest attendance ever for a Memorial last night. Let's just say around 120% over the number of actual number of members. Some were inactive ones, some were Bible studies, and a few were from the invitations. I do think our cong. is unusual in that there's a fairly large number of Bible studies being conducted. A few attend the KH. We have had a small amount of growth over the past few years this way.
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  26

  So...Did Judas Leave Before the Lord's Evening Meal?

  by undercover in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, it's that time of year, once again, when the society starts reliving jesus' last few days on earth as a human.... in addition to all the propaganda about the 144,000 and only they being "allowed" to partake of jesus' blood and body at the annual jw deny christ ritual...another jw teaching, though not as dissected, is the teaching that judas iscariot left the room before the bread and wine were shared with the apostles.. it's important to jw doctrine that this be the case.

  because only those who make up the true christian congregation, the annointed, the first of these the faithful apostles, are to partake of these emblems.

  if jesus was already aware of judas' plan to betray him and yet judas was present for this new, important ritual, it would be rendered useless by his partaking.

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  leaving_quietly

  I couldn't agree with you more. It's like we're sabotaged right from the get-go.
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  25

  Why a day behind Passover? Weren't the apostles celebrating Passover?

  by wha happened? in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i don't get the day differeance.

  what's the obscure referance the wt uses to set the memorial a day late?.

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  leaving_quietly

  They probably use something like this:

  http://www.calendar-365.com/moon/moon-calendar.html

  Or, perhaps this:

  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=110&month=3&year=2013&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
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  26

  So...Did Judas Leave Before the Lord's Evening Meal?

  by undercover in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, it's that time of year, once again, when the society starts reliving jesus' last few days on earth as a human.... in addition to all the propaganda about the 144,000 and only they being "allowed" to partake of jesus' blood and body at the annual jw deny christ ritual...another jw teaching, though not as dissected, is the teaching that judas iscariot left the room before the bread and wine were shared with the apostles.. it's important to jw doctrine that this be the case.

  because only those who make up the true christian congregation, the annointed, the first of these the faithful apostles, are to partake of these emblems.

  if jesus was already aware of judas' plan to betray him and yet judas was present for this new, important ritual, it would be rendered useless by his partaking.

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  leaving_quietly

  If read forward only time-wise, yes. And the fact that the double-quote marks do not end verse 20. And, this is the one thing that makes me want to say Judas was indeed present. However, Luke himself was not present at that event. His account is hearsay only. He totally could have been wrong on the order of events. I'm not arguing that he was, only that he could be. John's account has Judas leaving immediately, but we don't know when "immediately" was in the events of the evening because John does not mention the bread and wine. Thus, we're only left guessing. Like I said, it all boils down to what you want to believe.

  And, not that I'm an apologist for the Society, but this teaching is not unique to JWs. Just do a google search for "was Judas present" (with the quotes) and see a large variety of non-JW postings on the topic.

  Of interest, Paul quotes Luke's words in 1 Cor. 11. Luke and Paul spent a lot of time together. Neither were present for the Passover that night. So, it's unknown to me who was quoting who. Was Paul quoting Luke? Or was Luke quoting Paul?

  Ah, if only the scriptures were CLEAR on matters like this... *sigh*
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  8

  Did Jesus had a passover meal AND then a wine/bread meal?

  by pixel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  why the witnesses separate these two event?.

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  leaving_quietly

  You bring up a good question.

  Matt 26:21: "While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” 22?Being very much grieved at this, they commenced each and every one to say to him: “Lord, it is not I, is it?” 23?In reply he said: “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24?True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born.” 25?By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].”
  26?As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.”

  Mark 14:22: "And as they continued eating, he took a loaf, said a blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said: “Take it, this means my body."

  They were celebrating the Passover. That much the scriptures make clear. Was it two meals? No, not two separate meals. However, the Passover portion was given priority in following the Law. It was only after the Law was satisfied did the next portion continue. Remember, the bread could not be left over until morning, per the Law, so either it all had to be eaten, or whatever was left was to be burned with fire. Once the Law was satisfied, the new covenant was instituted.

  Whether Judas was excused after the Law was satisfied (the Passover portion only) or after the new covenant was instituted is hotly debated. It's not a JW-only teaching that Judas was excused before the new covenant was instituted. The sad fact is that the writings we have in the four accounts do not coincide with each other completely enough to resolve this issue.
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  26

  So...Did Judas Leave Before the Lord's Evening Meal?

  by undercover in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, it's that time of year, once again, when the society starts reliving jesus' last few days on earth as a human.... in addition to all the propaganda about the 144,000 and only they being "allowed" to partake of jesus' blood and body at the annual jw deny christ ritual...another jw teaching, though not as dissected, is the teaching that judas iscariot left the room before the bread and wine were shared with the apostles.. it's important to jw doctrine that this be the case.

  because only those who make up the true christian congregation, the annointed, the first of these the faithful apostles, are to partake of these emblems.

  if jesus was already aware of judas' plan to betray him and yet judas was present for this new, important ritual, it would be rendered useless by his partaking.

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  leaving_quietly

  This is a hotly debated topic, not just among JWs. The JW understanding is largely accepted by non-JWs, from what I've been able to research. Matthew and John were actually there. Mark was likely told what happened by Peter at some later date, and Peter was there. We don't know where Luke got his information from. He simply states he "traced all things from the start with accuracy."

  I am inclined to say that Judas partook of the Passover Meal, but not of the bread and the wine following that. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the missing double-quote mark at the end of Luke 22:20. If it were there, then it would be easy to see a break in Jesus' words between verses 20 and 21. However, since it's missing, to me, that indicates no break in Jesus' words, and thus the action of giving a morsel to Judas (or Jesus and Judas dipping their morsels in the bowl at the same time, depending on whose account you read) would have taken place after Jesus broke the loaf and handed each person a piece.

  The answer is that no one today reallly knows. It makes more sense that Judas was not there, that he departed prior to Jesus instituting the new convenant. But Luke's account throws a wrench into that.

  Some say that John's account shows that the evening meal (the Passover meal) had ended in John 13:1-4. Those verses, however, do not say the evening meal was over. John 1:2 says, "while the evening meal was going on". Jesus washed the feet of the apostles, and this included Judas. Verse 4 simply says Jesus "got up from the evening meal". This simply means he rose from his position, but as verse 2 noted, the evening meal was still going on. Thus, it could very well be that the morsel Jesus gave to Judas was from the Passover bread.

  So, the big question is: where did the morsel come from? The Passover meal? Or the loaf Jesus broke when instituting the new covenant?

  To me, this does throw into question the "inspiration" of the scriptures. Matthew and John seem to contradict each other with one saying Jesus and Judas dipped their morsels into the bowl at the same time, and the other saying that Jesus gave Judas the morsel. Luke has it out of chronological order, perhaps. Unfortunately, one cannot, with the information given, come to a solid conclusion. One can only come to a conclusion based on personal feeling about the matter, which would normally be: why would Jesus allow Judas to be present at the institution of the new covenant when he knew Judas was about to betray him?

  Of course, when I read John's account, I think to myself: how stupid can the other apostles be? Jesus just got done announcing that whomever he gives the morsel to would betray him. He gives it to Judas and tells Judas to get it done quickly, and the apostles are that out of it that they think it had something to do with buying something for the festival??? This part makes no sense to me. It almost gives credence to Judas actually being present and some time passing between Jesus talking about the betrayer, telling everyone it's who he gives the morsel to, then later, after everyone's forgotten that conversation, actually gives it to Judas.

  Again, though... there's no solid conclusion based on these scriptures. Only what one wants to believe.
• 
  4

  anti-shunning

  by Honeybucket in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible
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  leaving_quietly

  See this: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php

  In addition, look up the relevant scriptures at http://bible.cc and read the various commentaries.

  My take: expelling from the congregation IS scriptural. Shunning is scriptural, but it's the shunning of the action, not the person (2 Tim 2:16; Titus 3:9). The complete ignoring of a person, not even saying a greeting, however, applies to the anti-Christ. Limiting association is what would apply to one called a brother who refuses to change their ways. Limiting association means "not even eating with such a man". It does not mean "not even saying a greeting", such as the anti-Christ.
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  97

  First mention of "new light" may appear in July 15, 2013 Watchtower

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a trusted source informs me that the "new light" about the faithful slave is to make its first printed appearance in the july 15th watchtower, which should be available for download online three weeks from now, on around april 15th.. i'm led to believe that the references to the new understanding are made in such a manner as to suggest the "new light" isn't that new at all, which suggests to me that little or no effort is being made to explain the doctrinal connotations.

  my source and i are hoping to get a key paragraph posted at the earliest opportunity.

  watch this space!.

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  leaving_quietly

  The end was coming in 1914, 1925, 1942, 1975, any day now

  They will likely never (of course, never say never) change the "any day now", "soon", or "imminent" phrases to a date again. I think they've learned that that's backfired on them way too many times. I recently heard a talk where a bethelite close to the GB said the won't look to the Bible for a formula again, because they've finally learned their lesson with what Jesus said at Act 1:7: "“It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

  Of course, that doesn't stop them from saying "soon" or any such phrase, including what was said by Samuel Herd at our D.C. last summer: "We are in the last day of the last days!"He, of course, preceded that with the statement that they got that info from heaven. (Not to be confused with our dear member, Heaven, who denied ever talking to the GB. LOL!)
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  97

  First mention of "new light" may appear in July 15, 2013 Watchtower

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a trusted source informs me that the "new light" about the faithful slave is to make its first printed appearance in the july 15th watchtower, which should be available for download online three weeks from now, on around april 15th.. i'm led to believe that the references to the new understanding are made in such a manner as to suggest the "new light" isn't that new at all, which suggests to me that little or no effort is being made to explain the doctrinal connotations.

  my source and i are hoping to get a key paragraph posted at the earliest opportunity.

  watch this space!.

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  leaving_quietly

  Just for reference, The Finished Ministry, 1918, immediately in the preface states:

  page 2

  "The great Master laid special emphasis on the importance of the messenger to the seventh, or Laodicean, period of the Church, saying that such an one would be "a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord would make ruler over all His Household, to give them meat in due season."

  "Those consecrated Christians who have read and fully appreciated the Truth as contained in the preceding six volumes of STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES readily see and agree that Charles Taze Russell was the messenger of the Church of Laodicea. In the mind of every one who believes the Bible the evidence set forth in this volume will establish that fact beyond the question of a doubt."

  page 4

  "In 1879 Charles Taze Russell began the publication of THE WATCH TOWER, of which he was the sole editor as long as he remained on earth. THE WATCH TOWER was, and is, the first and only journal declaring the presence of the Lord Jesus. Pastor Russell being the messenger to the Laodicean Church, and occupying the position of the Lord's special servant to give the Household of Faith meat in due season..."