Posts by leaving

19

Jesus in the old testament

by Steel in

about two years ago i was challenged by a householder to do the research on the subject.

of course thinking it was all bunk i decided to take a look off the reservation.

much to my surprise a lot of started to make sense and i started to understand the connections between the old and new testament .

leaving_quietly

There was this nagging memory of some thought some time ago that Jesus was the "pillar of fire" or something like that. Took me a bit, but I finally found the one reference I was looking for.

21 Jehovah also uses angelic representatives to teach, including his Firstborn, “the Word.” (John 1:1-3) Although Jehovah could have spoken directly to his perfect human son, Adam, in the garden of Eden, likely he used the prehuman Jesus to speak for Him. (Genesis 2:16, 17) This one was probably “the angel of the true God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel” and regarding whom Jehovah commanded: “Obey his voice.” (Exodus 14:19; 23:20, 21) No doubt the prehuman Jesus was also the “prince of the army of Jehovah” who appeared to Joshua to strengthen him. (Joshua 5:14, 15) Jehovah also uses other angels to impart his teachings, such as those he used to deliver his Law to Moses.—Exodus 20:1; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2, 3.
w95 8/1 p. 13 par. 21

Then I searched for "prehuman Jesus" and found this:

As the history of Israel unfurled, the Word observed Satan’s attempts to turn humans away from pure worship. Following the Exodus from Egypt, God told Israel through Moses: “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because my name is within him.” (Exodus 23:20, 21) Who was this angel? Likely, the prehuman Jesus.
w98 6/15 p. 23

And:

•23:20-23—Who was the angel mentioned here, and how was it that Jehovah’s name was “within him”?
Angels other than the prehuman Jesus Christ were used to transmit God’s law to Moses. (John 1:1-3, 14; Hebrews 2:2, 3) But it is reasonable to conclude that the angel of whom Jehovah said “my name is within him” was Jesus in his prehuman form. He was used to guide the Israelites on their way to the Promised Land. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) Jesus, whose name means “Salvation of Jehovah,” is the principal one that upholds and vindicates his Father’s name.
w83 10/15 p. 31

And:

What “things” did Isaiah say “because he saw his glory”? Well, John quotes Isaiah here twice, first quoting Isaiah 53:1 concerning the “arm of Jehovah” and then quoting Isaiah 6:10 concerning the temple vision. At Isaiah 53:1 the “arm of Jehovah” is Christ Jesus. At Isaiah 6:10 the speaker at the temple is Jehovah, but he includes his Son with him when he says: “Who will go for us?” that is, for me and my Son. Thus we see that the prehuman Jesus was associated with Jehovah in his glory at the temple, and hence John could rightly say Isaiah here saw his glory and spoke about him, “the arm of Jehovah.” Certainly Jesus the Greater Isaiah had not sent himself, but Jehovah at the temple did so, for John here applies Isaiah 6:10 to Jesus as the Sent One toward whom this prophecy was first fulfilled, after Jesus had ridden into Jerusalem and offered himself as King and had cleansed the temple. At that time Jesus was not in “his glory”, but the Jewish leaders had vilified him and had conspired to kill him.
w51 4/1 p. 216

There's probably more, but it's not something that was discussed all that much that I can recall.

129

Hi forum

by A Believer in

i proably shouldnt be on here but i feel like saying this.

i have been for the last couple weeks been studying religion.

i've learned the only ones who today do what the bible says to is jw.

leaving_quietly

All I can say about 1914 is that JWs have twisted quite a few things around scripturally to get to that date.

Daniel chapter 4, according to JWs, has TWO fulfillments (nevermind that verse 28 says that Nebuchadnezzar was the fulfillment.) BTW, Daniel didn't write chapter 4. Nebuchadnezzar did. See Dan 4:1.

This somehow miraculously ties to Luke 21:24 about Jerusalem being trampled on by the nations based on one word, "times". Nevermind that both the context and the Greek tense in the verse is FUTURE, not PAST, which it would have to be if the trampling started when Jerusalem was destroyed, which would have been ~600 years prior to when Christ said those words.

This somehow ties to Rev 11:3 which indicates 1260 days is 42 months, and 42 months is 3.5 years, which is half of 7 (remember Daniel 4?...That has a bit about "seven times"). So, these 7 times, using a rule of a day for a year found at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 and applying it hear, says these 7 times are actually 7 years, and 7 years is 2520 days (1260 x 2), and this really means 2520 days. So, counting from the erroneous year of Jerusalem's destruction of 607 B.C.E. forward 2520 years brings one to 1914 A.D. Nevermind that the Bible uses lunar years of 360 days each... JWs will just use solar years of 365 days each.

Get my point? Ignore the facts (or make them up) and things get weird.

Edited for snarkiness. ;)

129

Hi forum

by A Believer in

i proably shouldnt be on here but i feel like saying this.

i have been for the last couple weeks been studying religion.

i've learned the only ones who today do what the bible says to is jw.

leaving_quietly

This is Paul saying some where turning away from the Good news taught by christ. If early Christianity was unitarian doesn't this this align with others turning away from it?
Yes Jesus being resurrected was good news. But in the sense of this scripture the good news is religion.

In the sense of this scripture? I'm sorry, what? Where do you get religion from it? Note more carefully what it says, particularly that ones were "wanting to distort the good news about Christ". This isn't about religion. Religion isn't even mentioned. This is all about the good new of Christ, specifically that he died for our sins and was resurrected, becoming a guarantee of our salvation. That's a far different message than 'God is going to destroy wickedness.' While that may be true, that isn't the good news that should be preached. Paul emphasize that this was his main message at 1 Tim 2:5-7:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time. 7 For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]
What else could this mean besides no one else beside Jesus has went to heaven? So where do we go?

That no one had ever gone into heaven, just as the verse says. But after Christ died, he paved the way for that to happen.

John 14:2-4: In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.”

Also, Phil 3:14, 15: I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you.

Some would be "mentally inclined" otherwise. Paul was telling his audience that being mentally inclined otherwise wasn't the correct inclination.

Thier will be a paradise on earth.

Before you say that, please find ONE VERSE that says this. There are only four mentions of "paradise" in the Bible. None of them refer to earth.

That said, I believe that eventually, at some point after the events of Revelation 20 occur, there will be a residing on earth, and perhaps eventually it will be a paradise. Why do I believe this?

Rev 21:2: I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I want to emphasize, though, that the destination hope for Christians was NEVER EVER EVER said to be a paradise earth. Not by Christ and not by the apostles. JWs believe in a two-hope system. I've known this all my life, but it was outrightly stated in The Watchtower, December 15, 2013 issue on page 25, paragraph 13. Discussing the Memorial celebration, it said: "The speaker will explain the two distinct hopes set out in the Bible for Christians."

Does the Bible set out two distinct hopes? Ephesians 4:4-6 says no.

One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Anyway, it appears you are zoomed in on the "JWs are the only ones who preach" mantra, which is not what makes the mark of a Christian. There are many who preach, not just JWs. If there weren't, then why would Christ warn us about those who come and try to deceive us? The issue is not WHO is preaching, but WHAT is being preached.

All I can say is this: before making the claim that JWs are right because of outward appearances, do your homework. Jesus condemned the Pharisees, the supposed "right religion" of the day:

Matt 23:27,28: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Is there any hypocrisy on the part of JWs? How about lawlessness? I can't answer these questions for you. Well, I can, but that would be just my opinion. This is something you need to investigate for yourself.

John 5:39,40: “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. 40 And yet you do not want to come to me so that you may have life.

In my years as a JW, rare was it to be admonished to come to Christ. In fact, coming to Christ as a JW means to follow in his footsteps, which equates to preaching. What does it mean to come to Christ?

John 14:6: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 11:27: All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

We cannot get to the Father except through Christ. Not through any religion. No through any other human. We must go through Christ.

In Revelation, he said to the congregation in Ephesus:

Rev 2:1,2:  ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars.

The word "apostle" means "sent forth one". Any who claims they are sent forth by God to do something should rightly be put to the test. That means even the teachings of JWs.

Best wishes to you. May the journey be enlightening.

Edited for typos.

19

Jesus in the old testament

by Steel in

about two years ago i was challenged by a householder to do the research on the subject.

of course thinking it was all bunk i decided to take a look off the reservation.

much to my surprise a lot of started to make sense and i started to understand the connections between the old and new testament .

leaving_quietly

The All Scripture book on pages 343-345 contained a partial list of prophecies fulfilled by Christ. WTBTS did acknowledge Jesus in the OT, but didn't dwell on it, other than to say it fulfilled those prophecies. However, they didn't dwell on him meaning the rock that Moses struck (1 Cor 10:4) or how Moses lifting up the copper serpent represented Christ being lifted up (John 3:14,15). Oh, I'm sure these things were said at times, but never emphasized much.

Luke 24:27 records: "And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."

Back then, "all the Scriptures" meant solely the OT as the NT hadn't been written yet.

129

Hi forum

by A Believer in

i proably shouldnt be on here but i feel like saying this.

i have been for the last couple weeks been studying religion.

i've learned the only ones who today do what the bible says to is jw.

leaving_quietly

Believer,

I was a JW for most of my life. I'm now in my mid-40s. I served as an elder in the congregation. I was very much a believer. Until I started researching. Not just a couple of weeks of researching. Over two very intense years' worth. It tapered off since then. That was almost five years ago and my research still continues. I have come to the very opposite conclusion.

Luke 21:8 has already been brought out here, so I won't discuss it.

You said you believe JWs are right because they preach the good news. The question is: what "good news"? The good news JWs preach is that God's kingdom will come and destroy the wicked and set up a theocratic government, and that people will live in a paradise earth.

Gal 1:6-9 says: "I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

What was the good news Paul and others preached?

Acts 13:32-41: “So we are declaring to you the good news about the promise made to the forefathers. 33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’ 34 And the fact that He resurrected him from the dead never again to return to corruption, He has stated in this way: ‘I will give you the expressions of loyal love promised to David, which are faithful.’ 35 So it also says in another psalm: ‘You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption.’ 36 David, on the one hand, rendered service to God in his own generation, fell asleep in death, was laid with his forefathers, and did see corruption. 37 On the other hand, the one whom God raised up did not see corruption.
38 “Let it therefore be known to you, brothers, that through this one a forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, 39 and that from all the things from which you could not be declared guiltless by means of the Law of Moses, everyone who believes is declared guiltless by means of this one. 40 Therefore, watch out that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon you: 41 ‘Look at it, you scorners, and be amazed, and perish, for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will never believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail.’”

What of "paradise earth"?

1 Cor 2:9,10: "But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God."

God HAS REVEALED the things he has prepared. To whom? Paul said, "to us". Why is it that Paul NEVER spoke of a paradise earth? Where did this come from? Is it "another sort of good news"? According to Galatians, one who teaches "another sort of good news" regardless of the source, be it a human or an angel, should be accursed.

Believer, you can believe what you want to. As for me, I've already done so, and continue to do so. Most JWs are nice people and are sincere in their beliefs, just as I am sincere in my beliefs. JWs are like any other religion out there... claiming to be the true religion. But, as they have admitted quite openly, their leaders, the Governing Body, is not infallible nor inspired and can err in doctrine. Why in the world would we want to follow anyone who tells us they could actually be wrong?

25

Watchtower's "New Light" re Babylonish Captivity, November 2016 WT

by Room 215 in

has anyone noticed the wt's most recent shell-game revisionism in the november study tractazine, relating to the shifting of its "babylonish captivity" doctrine, from a 3 1/2-year period around the ww 1 years, to a period now spanning about 16 centuries, or from the 4th century (constantine's legal recognition of christianity) to 1919?.

leaving_quietly

I don't have a problem with them saying that Babylonish captivity started way back in the second century, but to say it ended in 1919 is kinda silly. By 1919, the Bible Students still had so, so many issues, including celebrating pagan holidays. Let me ask this key question:

Why would God "resurrect" his people and have them start of with wrong teachings and pagan customs? Does that make any sense at all?

Then, in the late 1800’s, Charles Taze Russell and his associates worked zealously to restore Bible truths. It was as if symbolic flesh and skin were starting to be put on spiritual skeletons. Zion’s Watch Tower and other publications helped honesthearted ones to discover spiritual truths. Later, such tools as the “Photo-Drama of Creation” in 1914 and the book The Finished Mystery in 1917 also strengthened God’s people. Finally, in 1919, God’s people were given life, spiritually speaking, and were settled in their new spiritual land.

It takes less time to conceive and give birth to a baby. Is God really that slow?

18

Is there a biblical basis for separation or divorce?

by Conias in

jw
friends

is there a biblical basis for separation or divorce?.

in the event that one of the spouses is being psychologically mistreated in a very serious manner where his health is severely damaged and even his own life is in danger.

is there a biblical basis for jehovah's witnesses for separation or divorce?.

leaving_quietly

@smiddy, yes. Their three acceptable reasons for separation are all wholly unscriptural. Where does the Bible say separation is acceptable if one feels their spirituality is in danger? So, yes, this is well beyond the things written.

13

Sex & Divorce

by IMHO in

jw
friends

1. you can't have sex until your married.. 2. you're not married until you've gone through a legal ceremony.. 3. you get 'unscriptually' (although legally) divorced therefore not 'free' to remarry'.

4. can you still 'scriptually' have sex with your former spouse?.

leaving_quietly

Since the question is about 'scripturally', not what WT says, here is the only passage on the matter:

To the married people I give instructions, not I but the Lord, that a wife should not separate from her husband. But if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled with her husband; and a husband should not leave his wife. - 1 Cor 7:10,11

18

Is there a biblical basis for separation or divorce?

by Conias in

jw
friends

is there a biblical basis for separation or divorce?.

in the event that one of the spouses is being psychologically mistreated in a very serious manner where his health is severely damaged and even his own life is in danger.

is there a biblical basis for jehovah's witnesses for separation or divorce?.

leaving_quietly

The key words in the OP are "biblical basis". This is a hot button topic for me. It's what started me down the path to awakening. Answer: Yes. Jesus' words have already been quoted. But also see 1 Cor 7:10-17.

Now, something I recently caught in Jesus words:

“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Why did Jesus put the blame on Moses? The was part of the Law that GOD gave Moses. I have not researched this, yet, but it seems to me something is amiss here.

30

GB "... it can make mistakes when explaining the Bible ..." Simplified version WT Feb 2017

by freddo in

study article: who is leading god's people today?

start of paragraph 12.. standard version: "the governing body is neither inspired nor infallible.

therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.".

leaving_quietly

I'm just gonna leave this here (emphasis mine).

Still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them. - w14 7/15 p14 par. 10

I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned. - Matt 12:36,37

leaving_quietly

Posts by leaving_quietly