Terry,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
...Gee, we ought to do this again next year.
kepler
JoinedPosts by kepler
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My 66th birthday is today!!
by Terry inonce i was little boy in fort worth, texas living with my maw maw and paw paw and mommy.. then, i was an 18 year old 6'4'' skinny 165lb religious nut being dipped in a baptismal during a local assembly.. suddenly, i was 20 and listening to a jail cell door clang behind me as a conscientious objector.. wow!
23 years old and put on parole until my 6 years sentence was ended!
i got married to a nice jw girl and had 3 kids!.
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Do People Believe We Are Condemned B/c of Adam and Eve?
by Band on the Run ini find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
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kepler
BOTR,
Some people, of course, pose questions about one's faith to counter questions that an adult might raise after considering for once a story they have heard read like a fable before bed to a child. The adult says, "Stop for a minute. What is really going on?"
Good question. And it only raises more. As Christians we forget to ask ourselves what would this story have meant to Jews if Paul had not come along? Would it have meant the same to all of them (the covenant that they attested to, being whatever it was ) since they could little agree on whether life ended with death or continued on another plane?
If one puts any stock in the notion of various sources of the OT books and chapters, the editors of chapter 1 through to 2:4 of Genesis were of different view and origin than those that followed for several chapters. Chapter language and description of creation differ significantly in chpater one from what follows. Even the disposition and behavior of the God who had completed a six day labor. But once the second, third and fourth chapter editors complete their account of the Garden, the subject is never broached again in Genesis. Nor does it elsewhere in the Penteteuch or the rest of the OT. Abraham's encounter with God introduces a Covenant and a Promised Land that unifies most of the rest of the text.
I am told that the Eastern Orthodox Church has a different view on the story of the Garden than we have in the west. And I am still curious to have their viewpoint explained. I notice as well, that although the NT Gospels appear to have devils and demons (rather than talking snakes) lurking behind EVERY tree, so to speak, Paul does not take a position of "ransom" being paid. And I think that significant. It is people such as Rutherford or his theological predecessors that seem to make so much of representing Satan at the affair which Paul describes as a breech between God and Adam. Maybe this sounds like splitting hairs, but I think there is more to it than that. I should add that the Paul's epistles came first with the explanation of Christ in terms of the Garden. And then the Gospels were written in a succession that is not clearly known, save that the SECOND destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in a Roman siege was a significant milestone. Did all, some or one write afterwards?
Though is claimed to be the most Jewish in outlook of the Gospel writers, after a geneaology the story begins with the visit of Magi. Magi are Zoroastrians. They certainly believe in devils and a dualistic cosmos. Yet they are absent in the OT and at least one annotated Torah I have notes of 3:14, "... As the curse that follows indicates, this story has to do with the fate of the snakes, not with the cosmic role of a devil. There is no such concept in the Hebrew Bible.... v. 14 states explicitly that snakes crawl on their bellies is the punishment imposed on the snake and its descendants for the offense that it has committed." This is literal minded, of course. But are not alternative explanations for what this story about very literal and discriminating in evidentiary approach as well?
As circumstances would have it, I found myself only a few degrees of separation away from one of the priests that presided over the most famous exorcism in the country. Well, actually, he assisted. And only recently did he pass on after a career both as a high school instructor and as a paratrooper military chaplain. The subject of the rites was a young boy from the Midwest, not a young girl in the District of Columbia. While the presiding priest was more convinced that he was dealing with the devil since he was inflicted with a wound of about a hundred stitches in the midst of the encounter ( a hooked bedspring), the other attending priest said that "all he was sure of was that boy needed help" and that he confronted more evil on the battlefront.
I came away from both reading the Bible and these testimonies with the notion that evil is something more significantly within us and not so much about a dualistic battle over eternity between a demon and God. If I spend my life searching for this demon, I am more likely to spawn one within myself or fire weapons in the dark wounding others taking aim at it. To illustrate, try reading the raving daily entries of the 1934 Yearbook edited by Rutherford. And consider others whose means of exorcism was related more to alighting the strange at the stake. So if there is a question of spiritual triage, that reflects my thinking.
Of course, none of this resolves your dilemma, but I hope it provides some other perspectives.
K
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kepler
With some assist from other correspondents...
End of the World, As We Know It
Posted Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:34 pm ((PST))
Is the world gonna end at one second past midnight tonight, or
sometime between then and the stroke of midnight tomorrow night?
-L.
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L:
My own experience with these matters is that the world is in the process (if not already ) of "invisible" end.
The adherents of this belief will be in contact with all of us shortly to inform us of such and set us down to have some not so little talks about the matter.
It will turn out that the old world had gone into receivership and the new party had obtained the rights in a foreclosure auction officiated by a Mayan higher power in the same "invisible" manner.
Expect frequent, pervasive and all encompassing memos from the new presumed authorities on all matters pursuant or otherwise until the next scheduled (or unscheduled) precipitous event - not that that will terminate the process.
Addenda:
With the world ended, it will be a good time for continued reflection on Mayan hieroglyphic prophecies which the authors' people have ceased to write or read themselves for over a millenium now.
...If you don't think the world has already been destroyed now that you have received this notice of what to expect, then you are simply not spiritually receptive enough to appreciate the facts. AWAKE!
K
PS. If you had a mortgage or car payment due at the end of the month, I'd put it in the mail according to previous calendar schedule and cover it with money in the bank according to the old system of things.
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End of the World, As We Know It
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:31 pm ((PST))
QUERY:
WHO's Midnight?
There are 24 of 'em
Situation does NOT compute>
World termination is binary --
Either it is total or it is ain't --- leave the progressivity to the demoncrats
-GW
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End of the World, As We Know It
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:46 pm ((PST))
I had planned to get a pony keg and lawn chair and go up on the roof to get a
front row seat. But all that snow last night screws with that plan. I'm
switching to plan B. As soon as I get up I'm going down to the local bar, ask
the bar keep to keep a tab running and watch the whole thing in HD 1080p on
their big screen. See ya all around.
Big Bob
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Storing up treasures in heaven - when do we get to see them?
by truthseeker ini often heard the phrase "store up treasures in heaven" but never really knew what it meant.. if we're all going to be living on paradise earth, what good is it storing up treasures in heaven if we never get to see them?.
or am i missing something here?.
it would make better sense if we were going to heaven after we finish our life here..
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kepler
In the New International Version
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Matthew 6:19-21
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
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As near as I can tell, it says much the same thing in the NWT.
But I can understand the concern. What with 144,000 administrators headed heavenward to manage such things, and a so-called remnant to remain down here on what is billed as a paradise earth, after an increasing number of administrative delays...
Someday though, after those first prophetic hurdles have been overcome, you'll go out to your mailbox and you will be in for a surprise...
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A CRACKERJACK religion: the Watchtower Society
by Terry indid you ever buy a box of crackerjacks?.
popcorn with caramel on it.. it had a gimmick, however, that really pushed sales and kept it popular decade after decade.. crackerjacks had a prize hidden inside!.
what fun to eat caramel popcorn just to get that stupid prize!.
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kepler
Speaking of the FDS...
Took a multiple choice employment test today and the vocabulary part just happened to have the word "DISCRETE" as a test question.
There were four alternatives and "WISE" was not among them. The answer was "CAUTIOUS".
It's the least to say that I had a feeling already:
DISCRETE and FOOLISH VIRGINS or WISE and FOOLISH BRIDESMAIDS? WISE and FAITHFUL SERVANT or FAITHFUL and DISCRETE SLAVE?
A DISCRETE SLAVE might be CAUTIOUS about suggesting another crackerjack prize date for the end in the box.
A WISE SERVANT wouldn't have suggested it in the first place. That would be attempting to paint the master into a corner.
Not WISE, FAITHFUL or even DISCRETE but MANIPULATIVE.
Of course, I have always been fascinated by Orwellian equivalences, perhaps being arranged into syllogisms...
WAR is PEACE
IGNORANCE is STRENGTH
FREEDOM is SLAVERY (!!!!) ...
PUBLISHING is FAITH...
FAITHFUL DISCRETE SLAVE is GOVERNING BOARD
TOTAL THEOCRACY is PARADISE EARTH
Long live this, that or the overlapping generation!
...Got anything else in this box?
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The SIN that is UNforgiven a contrast between Christianity and Judaism
by Terry init is little understood by christians what a difference there is between themselves and judaism especially on the matter of whom god forgives and why.. .
a christian expects to sin against many people in the course of their life, but proudly boasts that they aren't "perfect just forgiven.
" this is wrong by judaism's ethical, moral and theologic standards.. .
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kepler
Terry, PSacramento,
As interesting and detailed as this is, wonder if the discussion is about two moving targets? Is not "much of Mishrah" developed after the second destruction of the Temple? Could there have been cities of refuge throughout the period of Hebrew Scripture if centuries of the periods under discussion were under foreign rule? Subsequent to that there was a Diaspora that eventually had no center. I suspect that reconciliation with those with which one has quarreled or sinned has been a continued underlying principle, but could it have always been the same in scope for the last three millenia?
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WT: World War I started in October 1914 (not July 1914)
by Calebs Airplane inaccording to the wt, these are the actual sequence of events that led to the start of world war i:.
1) the gentile times ended on october 1/2, 1914.
2) jesus took the throne immediately thereafter.. 3) one of jesus' first tasks as the newly enthroned king was to engage in a heavenly war against satan and his demons.. 4) having won the war against satan and his demons, jesus expelled satan and his demons from the heavenly realm giving them only terrestial access.. 5) since satan is a sore loser, he became extremely bitter and decided to wreak havoc upon all the earth.. 6) filled with anger, satan then provoked the nations of the earth into a 4 year bloody battle known today as world war i. so there you have it... wwi started sometime in october of 1914 (not july 1914 as history books would have you believe).
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kepler
Bobcat,
Speculative for now:
I think the April-May 1917 declarations were direct results of the American. Throughout this period there was a succession of intervention in Gulf and Carribean countries by Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson administrations. Some instances were not directly related to WWI; in some cases, simply to restore civil order - on US terms. But a consequence of a Central American declaration of war probably did not mean much in terms of troop movements or casualties. Probably it meant an embargo on shipping or trade, a prohibition of ships stopping in port for stores and fuel or additional protection to the Panama Canal.
Of course, the declarations in this part of the world seem one-sided. Barbara Tuchman, in another book, gives the background of the Zimmerman note, an offer from Germany to Mexico in 1915 for assistance in regaining the SW - for a declaration of war against the US. I guess the devil made them do it. But Mexico had enough internal problems (civil war), might not have had a chance to read it ( in private) and as the record would indicate, must have declined.
Question for readers: If this was an end of the world conflict, how come more temples were not destroyed?
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kepler
Matthew 16:24
Mark 8:34
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WT: World War I started in October 1914 (not July 1914)
by Calebs Airplane inaccording to the wt, these are the actual sequence of events that led to the start of world war i:.
1) the gentile times ended on october 1/2, 1914.
2) jesus took the throne immediately thereafter.. 3) one of jesus' first tasks as the newly enthroned king was to engage in a heavenly war against satan and his demons.. 4) having won the war against satan and his demons, jesus expelled satan and his demons from the heavenly realm giving them only terrestial access.. 5) since satan is a sore loser, he became extremely bitter and decided to wreak havoc upon all the earth.. 6) filled with anger, satan then provoked the nations of the earth into a 4 year bloody battle known today as world war i. so there you have it... wwi started sometime in october of 1914 (not july 1914 as history books would have you believe).
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kepler
Bobcat,
Good to hear from you. Will try to stay involved - for a while at least.
Thought I would look up something related to that previous note. Here is a record of the declarations of war. I added a minor note in CAPS
World War One: Declarations of War
According to the U.S State Department's list, the nations involved in the conflict made declarations of war as follows:
July 28, 1914 Austria against Serbia
Aug. 1, 1914 Germany against Russia
Aug. 3, 1914 Germany against France
Aug. 3, 1914 France against Germany
Aug. 4, 1914 Germany against Belgium
Aug. 4, 1914 Belgium against Germany
Aug. 4, 1914 Great Britain against Germany
Aug. 6, 1914 Serbia against Germany
Aug. 6, 1914 Austria against Russia
Aug. 7, 1914 Russia against Germany
Aug. 8, 1914 Montenegro against Austria
Aug. 9, 1914 Montenegro against Germany
Aug. 9, 1914 Austria against Montenegro
Aug. 13, 1914 France against Austria
Aug. 13, 1914 Great Britain against Austria
Aug. 23, 1914 Japan against Germany
Aug. 27, 1914 Austria against Japan
Aug. 28, 1914 Austria against Belgium
SEPTEMBER & OCTOBER 1914 - RESERVED....
Nov. 3, 1914 Russia against Turkey
Nov. 5, 1914 Great Britain against Turkey
Nov. 5, 1914 France against Turkey
Nov. 23, 1914 Portugal against Germany (authorizing intervention)
Nov. 23, 1914 Turkey against Allies
Dec. 2, 1914 Serbia against Turkey
May 19, 1915 Portugal against Germany (granting military aid)
May 24, 1915 Italy against Austria
May 24, 1915 San Marino against Austria
Aug. 21, 1915 Italy against Turkey
Oct. 14, 1915 Bulgaria against Serbia
Oct. 15, 1915 Great Britain against Bulgaria
Oct. 16, 1915 Serbia against Bulgaria
Oct. 16, 1915 France against Bulgaria
Oct. 19, 1915 Italy against Bulgaria
Oct. 19, 1915 Russia against Bulgaria
Mar. 9, 1916 Germany against Portugal
Aug. 27, 1916 Rumania against Austria (accepted by Austria's allies)
Aug. 28, 1916 Italy against Germany
Aug. 29, 1916 Turkey against Rumania
Sept. 14, 1916 Germany against Rumania
Nov. 28, 1916 Greece (Provincial Government) against Bulgaria
Nov. 28, 1916 Greece (Provincial Government) against Germany
Apr. 6, 1917 United States against Germany
Apr. 7, 1917 Cuba against Germany
Apr. 7, 1917 Panama against Germany
July 2, 1917 Greece against Bulgaria
July 02, 1917 Greece against Germany
July 22, 1917 Siam against Austria
July 22, 1917 Siam against Germany
Aug. 4, 1917 Liberia against Germany
Aug. 14, 1917 China against Austria
Aug. 14, 1917 China against Germany
Oct. 26, 1917 Brazil against Germany
Dec. 7, 1917 United States against Austria-Hungary
Dec. 10, 1917 Panama against Austria
May 23, 1918 Costa Rica against Germany
Dec. 16, 1917 Cuba against Austria-Hungary
Apr. 22, 1918 Guatemala against Austria-Hungary
Apr. 22, 1918 Guatemala against Germany
May 24, 1918 Nicaragua against Germany
July 15, 1918 Haiti against Germany
July 19, 1918 Honduras against Germany
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WT: World War I started in October 1914 (not July 1914)
by Calebs Airplane inaccording to the wt, these are the actual sequence of events that led to the start of world war i:.
1) the gentile times ended on october 1/2, 1914.
2) jesus took the throne immediately thereafter.. 3) one of jesus' first tasks as the newly enthroned king was to engage in a heavenly war against satan and his demons.. 4) having won the war against satan and his demons, jesus expelled satan and his demons from the heavenly realm giving them only terrestial access.. 5) since satan is a sore loser, he became extremely bitter and decided to wreak havoc upon all the earth.. 6) filled with anger, satan then provoked the nations of the earth into a 4 year bloody battle known today as world war i. so there you have it... wwi started sometime in october of 1914 (not july 1914 as history books would have you believe).
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kepler
Had I encountered someone peddling this idea back in the 1960s, I would have waved around a copy of Barbara Tuchman's book The Guns of August. It spends several hundred pages discussing the dimensions of warfare in the above named month.
Later on, I might have referred them to another so-named book, August 1914 by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. This discusses the Russo-German conflict in East Prussia. Russia lost a whole army corps, incidentally; that is, before the devil decided to intervene and start the battle! A video variation on that presentation was the Russian TV mini-series "Gibel' Imperii" - "Death of Empire"in which those events are depicted.
The Germans were very anxious about the East Prussian outcome because they already had a campaign going on in northern France... The advance on Paris was deflected by the end of the Battle of the Marne in September of 1914.
Then, of course, there is the collective memory of any family in France, Germany, Italy, the Balkans, Central Europe, the Ottoman Empire or the British Commonwealth who had veterans of that war affected by events in the first few months.
Considering that this "revisionist" history is promoted by an organization claiming those with cognitive memory of 1914 would live forever on paradise Earth, the proponents don't seem to have a very good recollection of events themselves.
If you use an Occam's razor approach to the idea of an October start for the War, or the notion thereof, the simplest solution would be that Russell, after wavering for several months about whether this was truly a big one ( "The Great War"), finally decided he had hit the jackpot and published a proclamation accordingly, figuring like Publications Clearing House "You may already have won!" In the US (still neutral), people and churches already concerned about the dimensions of the war were already organizing national days of prayer. Russell denounced this because God's verdict was irrevocable, as proclaimed in the WatchTower. From his experience with forecasting, he should know.
But with precedence of using invisible or undocumented events both to trump visible and documented ones and to infer the occurence of further invisible milestones, one's mind gets numbed after a while to the absurdities encompassed.
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The Battle of Tannenberg was an engagement between the Russian Empire and the German Empire in the first days of World War I. It was fought by the Russian First and Second Armies against the German Eighth Army between 26 August and 30 August 1914. The battle resulted in the almost complete destruction of the Russian Second Army. A series of follow-up battles destroyed the majority of the First Army as well, and kept the Russians off-balance until the spring of 1915. The battle is notable particularly for a number of rapid movements of complete German corps by train, allowing a single German army to concentrate forces against each Russian army in turn.
Post-war legacy The battle is at the center of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's novel August 1914.
The Guns of August (1962), also published as August 1914, is a volume of history by Barbara Tuchman. It is centered around the first month of World War I. After introductory chapters, Tuchman describes in great detail the opening events of the conflict. Its focus then becomes a military history of the contestants, chiefly the great powers.
The Guns of August thus provides a narrative of the earliest stages of World War I, from the decisions to go to war, up until the start of the Franco-British offensive that stopped the German advance into France. The result was four years of trench warfare. In the course of her narrative Tuchman includes discussion of the plans, strategies, world events, and international sentiments before and during the war.
The book was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-fiction for publication year 1963.[1] It also proved very popular. Tuchman would later return to a subject she had touched upon in The Guns of August, i.e., the social attitudes and issues that existed prior to World War I, in a collection of eight essays published in 1966 under the title The Proud Tower: A Portrait of the World Before the War, 1890-1914.[2]
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