Posts by puzzled

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), was troubled by the multiplicity of Christian sects. He received a vision at the age of 14. God and Jesus Christ appeared separately before Joseph and told him that all of the Christian sects and denominations were in error and that he should not join any of them. He later founded the Mormon church. It teaches that its beliefs and practices are a restoration of the very early Christian church.

MAY-15: The date in 1829 CE when Joseph Smith was visited by John the Baptist, who restored the Aaronic priesthood.

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/68/16#16

16 And if they be literal descendants of aAaron they have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the bfirstborn among the sons of Aaron;

17 For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and the akeys or authority of the same.
18 No man has a legal right to this office, to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a aliteral descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.
19 But, as a ahigh priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bbishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and aanointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.
21 But, by virtue of the decree concerning their right of the priesthood descending from father to son, they may claim their aanointing if at any time they can prove their lineage, or do ascertain it by revelation from the Lord under the bhands of the above named Presidency.

Off-shoots from the LDS church:

Joseph Smith taught a theology of restorationism: that the true Christian church died out in the early 2nd Century CE, and was restored by Joseph Smith with the subsequent establishment of the LDS Church. Restorationism currently consists of almost 100 denominations , many centered in Utah and Missouri. Many consist of a single congregation and a few hundred or fewer members. Some broke away from the LDS church over matters of theology. Many regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. These groups include:

Aaronic Order : unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers

Apolstolic United Brethren : about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS' decision to allow ordination of Afro-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.

Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson) : about 2000 members

Church of Christ (Temple Lot) : about 2400 members

The Church of Christ "With The Elijah Message," established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide

Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) : about 2700 members

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints : about 11 million members

The Community of Christ : about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- the "RLDS Church". It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.

United Order Effort : a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members

Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter's liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical "The Restoration Advocate" six times a year.

References used:

1. "American Religious Identification Survey," by The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, at: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/

2. Reported by Maranatha Christian Journal at: http://www.mcjonline.com/news/00b/20001109e.htm

3. K.L. Woodward, "A Mormon Moment: America's biggest homegrown religion is looking more Christian. But it's still a different world," Newsweek, 2001-SEP-10, at: http://www.msnbc.com/news/622787.asp

4. Art Toalston & Herb Hollinger, "SBC in Salt Lake City to top 1 millionth messenger mark," BaptistPress Archive, Stories for 1998-APR-15. Search at: http://www.baptistpress.org/

The text of The Pearl of Great Price is online at http://scriptures.lds.org/pgp/contents

Edited by - puzzled on 26 September 2002 1:28:49

91

A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill in

jw
friends

john corrill here from the ex-mormon board.

i've found your forum interesting.

mormons and ex-mormons struggle with many of the same things jw's do.

puzzled

This has some interesting reading

The "true" Christian church according to a group of Mormons:

A Mormon site 1 contains a list of 17 Bible references. The anonymous author(s) believe that these passages define certain features of the true church. All 17 seem to apply with remarkable accuracy to the LDS church. These points have been critiqued by Bill McKeever. 2 We found the identical list at Rapture Ready, a website that attempts to predict the timing of the rapture. 3The list is here attributed to a group of 5 men at the California Institute of Technology who assembled the list in the mid-1990's. This group was allegedly made up of an Atheist, Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic. We include a critique of their 17 points. [ Author's note: a reader of this essay informed us that they had heard an audio tape about this list perhaps as early as the mid 1970's. The tape was recorded by one of the original Cal Tech 5. ]

Christ founded the church: Ephesians 4:11-14 : "And he [Jesus] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...." This is not a useful indicator of the true church, because every denomination can trace its history back through preceding organizations to the 1 st century.
The church's name includes Jesus Christ: Ephesians 5:23: "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." The passage indicates that Jesus is the head of the church; it does not state that Jesus' name forms part of the church's name. Again, this is not a useful indicator of the true church, because every Christian denomination claims that Jesus is their ultimate head and savior.
It must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets: Ephesians 2:19-20: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." This passages can be interpreted to mean that the true church will have an organization like that of the Mormon church, with official positions named Apostles and Prophets. But the passage could also be interpreted as a simple comment by St. Paul on the origins of the church at Ephesus.

It must have the same organization as Christ's Church: Ephesians 4:11-14: (See quotation above)

	The LDS Church, alone among Christian denominations, meets a literal interpretation of this passage. Their church hierarchy includes apostles and prophets. Based upon a statement of their founder, Joseph Smith, the LDS church considers, the office of Patriarch is as equivalent to the position of Evangelist as referred to in Ephesians. Similarly, members of the all-male Aaronic Priesthood are considered to be teachers and pastors.
	However, many liberal interpreters 1 view the passage as not referring to formal job titles within the early New Testament churches. In the time of Paul, there was no precise church organizational structure that was shared throughout the movement. Apostles and prophets were often "ministers with a special vision;" evangelists were traveling ministers; pastors / teachers were local pastors.
	Still another belief is promoted by the Roman Catholic church: that Jesus ordained the apostles who in turn ordained priests. Bishops were selected from among the priesthood from the earliest days. The titles mentioned in Ephesians were simply job descriptions for various types of priests.

It must claim divine authority: Hebrews 5:4-10: "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God...Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec." Jesus was selected by God to be a priest of the order Melchisedec, just as Mormon males are ordained into the Melchisedec priesthood. This might be interpreted as giving special stature to the Mormon church. However, other theologians simply interpret the passage as referring to Jesus' selection by God to be the high priest of all.
It must have no paid ministry: Isaiah 45:13: "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts." and 1 Peter 5:2: "The elders which are among you I exhort...Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind." Essentially every Christian faith group, with the exception of cell churches, house churches, and very few others, have paid staff. If these passages were interpreted broadly to require all officials in a faith group too be volunteers, then almost no denomination could be considered the "true church." The Isaiah reference is to Cyrus the Persian, head of the Babylonian empire.
It must baptize by immersion: Matthew 3:13-16: "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him...And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water..." Jesus was baptized by full immersion. So, apparently, was the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:38-39. But of the 32 references to baptism in the New Testament, none specified that new Christians must be baptized by full immersion; none prohibit "sprinkling". In early Christendom, both new members and their baptizers were naked during the ritual. No Christian faith group performs naked baptisms today. If denominations can change the clothing requirements of the participants, then it can be argued that they can change other details of the ritual.
It must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands: Acts 8:14-17: "..the apostles...sent unto them Peter and John: Who...laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Some faith groups practice this; others do not. There are passages in the book of Acts which describe Christians receiving the Holy Spirit without hands being laid upon them. (Acts 4:31; 10:44 & 11:15.). The practice appears to have been optional.
It practices divine healing: Matthew 3:14-15: This passage, which describes Jesus' baptism by John does not seem to refer to divine healing. Mark 16:18 does: "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." But this passages appears to be a forgery, added by an unknown author after Mark was completed. Some faith groups do practice healing. Many others regarded such miracles as a function of the very early Christian church and not present today.
It teaches that God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals: John 17:11: "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee..." Here, Jesus talks about coming to God.That might imply that Jesus and God were separate entities. But the verse continues: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."Thelatter appears to indicate that Jesus and God are one. also John 20:17: "...Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." This verse seems to imply that Jesus must travel to get to God, and that the Father is God of both Mary Magdalene's and Jesus. Certain passages in the Bible appear to supportthe unity of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit; others appear to support the concept that Jesus and God are separate. The Church argued and debated for centuries over this point, and finally settled on the Trinity concept: that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons, within the unity of the Godhead.
It must teach that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone: e.g. Luke 24:36-39: "...And he [Jesus] said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." This passages describes Jesus visiting with the disciples after his execution and resurrection, during which he shows that he has a normal body. In other passages, he is described as having a spirit body, being able to pass through walls. Also, the Bible teaches in various places both that God is a spirit and that God has body parts. So, the Bible can find support for just about any belief system concerning the physicality of the Father and Son.
Its officers must be called by God: (Hebrews 5:4, Exodus 28:1, & Exodus 40:13-16): All faith groups believe that their clergy is called by God.
It must claim revelation from God: Amos 3:7: All faith groups claim revelations from God. Some believe that this is a direct instruction, e.g. orders from God to the head of the Mormon church, as when the LDS received instructions to eliminate polygamy and later, racism from the church. Other faith groups rely on individual and group prayer to ascertain God's will.
It must be a missionary church: Matthew 28:19-20: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them..." Many faith groups engage in major missionary activity. Others believe that this instruction was applicable only to the early Christian church, when Christians formed a very small minority.
It must be a restored church: Acts 3:19-21: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Mormons and others believe that this passage refers to the true church having been lost and later restored. Others interpret it as referring to continuing refreshment that the believer receives from God, and that "restitution of all things" refers to Jesus' healing of "every disorder and divisions caused by the fall of man"4 at the time of his second coming. The passages can clearly be interpreted in many ways.
It must practice baptism for the dead: e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" Some Christians interpret this passage as requiring baptism of the dead. But Paul uses "they" to refer to the baptizers; he apparently did not do it himself. Baptism of the dead was generally unknown in the Christian movements, except for Corinth. It would appear that baptism for the dead is an optional practice, neither condemned nor practiced by St. Paul.
It will be known by its behavior: Matthew 7:20: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Studying the present and past behavior of various faith groups (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Southern Baptists, Presbyterian, Methodists, Islam, Hinduism, etc.), one would see many instances of behavior that actively discriminated against people: racism; support of slavery; polygamy; sexism; homophobia; denial of childhood inoculation; suppression of birth control information; campaigns against racially mixed marriage, racial integration; etc. Of course, only a sub-set of these forms of discrimination are to be found in any one given religious group -- and then often only in the past. The full evil of these policies often was not recognized for many decades afterwards. The immoral nature of some of the faith group's "fruits" has been so widespread, that it is debatable whether many denomination would qualify even to be considered as the "true church." If they are to be judged by their behavior, then it could be argued that the true church would be one which has consistently fought for human rights against the rest of Christendom. The European Free Church family of denominations (e.g. Mennonites, Quakers) and liberal denominations like the United Church of Christ come to mind. To this list may be added the Unitarian Universalist Association, except that only about 10% of their membership consider themselves to be Christian.

91

A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill in

jw
friends

john corrill here from the ex-mormon board.

i've found your forum interesting.

mormons and ex-mormons struggle with many of the same things jw's do.

puzzled

As for the spaceship, that was a delight to read. I needed a good laugh! Please ask whomever told you that one to show you chapter and verse on it.

a mormon told me that.

Thats one of the major disagreements with-in the religion I was refering to.

And BTW. I also laughed my ars off.

27

Reason why I reject the Bible

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

some christian clear this up for me willya?

christians are saved thru the mediation of christ right?

if thats the case, will someone tell me why god spent 3000, 2000 years, however long, stuffing around with patriachs and israelites?

puzzled

So if we don't believe in god, it's not our fault, it's his?

either that or he sees some people better then they see themselves? Or maybe it could be he just doesn't like some people.

27

Reason why I reject the Bible

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

some christian clear this up for me willya?

christians are saved thru the mediation of christ right?

if thats the case, will someone tell me why god spent 3000, 2000 years, however long, stuffing around with patriachs and israelites?

puzzled

He has bastardized the experiment.

There's a thought. We're a bunch of laboratory mice.
We do the same thing, in the image of God? hmmm.

27

Reason why I reject the Bible

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

some christian clear this up for me willya?

christians are saved thru the mediation of christ right?

if thats the case, will someone tell me why god spent 3000, 2000 years, however long, stuffing around with patriachs and israelites?

puzzled

..... is all this to demonstrate what DOESNT work, before innaugurating that which does?

Funny as it sounds that is exactly what I've heard during many a Sunday Talk. LOL That basiclly this is all to prove a point to mankind. We cannot manage ourselves, never have and never will without the help of God. Without his help we will always suffer...something. There will always be war. There will always be those with too much and those with nothing.

91

A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill in

jw
friends

john corrill here from the ex-mormon board.

i've found your forum interesting.

mormons and ex-mormons struggle with many of the same things jw's do.

puzzled

I have relitives that are Mormon (uncles and cousins) and friends that are Mormon and they do not agree with each other on everything. Sometimes they sound like two entirely different religions.

Also my Mormon side of the fam and my JW side of the fam DO NOT agree on very much of anything. At least they never get far enough in a conversation to find out if there is anything at all they might agree on. But aside from religion they get along just fine.

Most people consider this strange but, oddly enough as it may seem, this is about the ONLY thing I don't find strange in Mormon beliefs:

I heard that a Mormon belief is that some of the "lost tribes of Israel" were to be found among the Native Americans (formerly called "Indians") here in North America. The idea of some kind of Hebrew - Native American connection seemed a bit of a stretch to me.

I see no reason to believe people in North America didn't have ancestors from other parts of the world. There is no proof that people just sprouted out of the ground where they stand.

I do however think it's silly to think Jesus was here during another time after his death and visited North America.

The weirdest thing I think is "Jesus came here in a spaceship"

5

need article on How Women treated

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

there was an article a while back entitled "how women are treated in the watchtower.

" the link is here but the article is gone, or "forbidden" to link from.

does anyone have a copy of this, or know where it is on the web?.

puzzled

1967 Issue

hawk-Link below incase you didn't catch it.

I just thought I would let you guys have the link to the August 22, 1967 Awake! article that discusses why women cannot be put in high up positions in the Borg. This is just so disgusting and is still current light.

Click here and dont forget to add the "http://" in front of the below urls.

hawkawl.freeservers.com/Page_27.jpg

hawkawl.freeservers.com/Page_28.jpg

Feel free to print off the scanned copies I have made for you. Due to linking restrictions, I cannot post them to the board except but i can give you the urls.

hawk

5