Posts by Bobcat

". . .YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. . ."

Compare the rendering "terrified" in the NWT with the range of renderings in the BibleHub link above. (The word also occurs at Mk 13:7 - the parallel to Mt 24:6; and 2 Thess 2:2) Not that "terrified" is not a possible rendering, it is. But in modern english "terrified" falls at the upper range of the word's meaning. (AMG's dictionary defines it as, "To make a clamor, tumult. Used transitively, meaning to disturb, trouble, terrify."

The vast majority of the translations cited at the link use the term "alarmed" or troubled." Jesus is saying that these wars, etc should NOT "trouble" or "alarm" one into thinking that "the end" was immiment. IMO, the use of the term "terrify" seems to give the instruction a different character, as if to say, "Yes when you see these things, that should ring an alarm in you that the end is near, but keep your heads, as opposed to being "terrified."

443

The 1914 generation is still going strong 100 years later - 2014 study article.

by THE GLADIATOR in

january 2014 watchtower study article.

let your kingdom comebut when?.

this generation will not pass away.

Bobcat

Kaik:

Another thing I noticed in your comment: You appear to be confusing the term "kingdom" with "empire." At least that is what I'm getting from your comments above. As if to say, '"kingdom rising against kingdom" could only refer to entire empires going up against each other in war.

In 1st century usage, a kingdom could be as small as a city state, ruled over by a king. A verse which many commentators feel may be behind Jesus' comment in Mt 24:6-8 is Isaiah 19:2 -

(Isaiah 19:2) . . .And I will goad Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will certainly war each one against his brother, and each one against his companion, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. (Compare also 2 Chr 15:6; 4 Ezra 13:31)

Note that event though "kingdom against kingdom" is referred to, the context says that this is within the broader scope of "Egyptians against Egyptians." So that "kingdom against kingdom" in no way has to refer to only great empires (such as "Allied" versus "Axis" as in WWII) going against each other.

At any rate, take care.

443

The 1914 generation is still going strong 100 years later - 2014 study article.

by THE GLADIATOR in

january 2014 watchtower study article.

let your kingdom comebut when?.

this generation will not pass away.

Bobcat

Kaik:

The Olivet prophecy did not really fullfilled at 70AD. Look into that Mat 24:7

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The context warns against taking these events as indicators of when "the end" will come. The disciples wanted to know "When?" And Jesus' initial answer is:

(Matthew 24:4-8 NWT) . . . “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. (nation, kingdoms against each other, famines, earthquakes, pestilences would occur) . . .All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

So Jesus wasn't telling the disciples to look for a "fulfillment" of these events. Rather, he was telling them that they could expect to see events like these and not to let these type events (whether witnessed first hand or heard of from others), and which were fairly common in the human experience, to suddenly get them to thinking that 'this is it,' or to believe others claims that these type events were significant in connection with when the end would come.

That is not to say that there wouldn't be an "end" for the Jewish nation/temple, or a much later "parousia" for Jesus, but those events in vv. 4-8 would not be the event(s) that would indicate the "end" had arrived. According to Jesus, verse 15 was the foretold event that they were to watch for.

Commenting on Matthew 24:4-8 (which formed the initial answer to the disciples question of, "When will these things be"), the NICNT-Matthew commentary (pp. 901-02) offers this:

Interspersed with the answer to the question "When?" is a series of warnings against misreading the significance of historical events and so succumbing to premature eschatalogical excitement. This part of the discourse (vv. 4-13), also gives pastoral guidance for puzzeled disciples in unsettling times: they are to keep their heads when all around them are panicking or falling prey to opportunists. Verses 6-8 focus on this theme: catastrophic world events are not in themselves signs of "the end." The preceding warning in vv. 4-5 suggests that this "end" was in some way linked with messianic claimants, and the same theme will emerge more fully in vv. 23-26 with specific refeence to the period of the siege of Jerusalem. When events begin to look threatening, there will be a tendency to imagine that this is the beginning of the eschatalogical climax, the "messianic" age, and people will take advantage of that notion to press their own claims. . .

It is remarkable how often occurrences such as those mentioned in these verses (vv. 4-8) are appealed to by those who are trying to work out a pattern for eschatalogical ["end time" - Bobcat] events, whereas in fact they are mentioned here precisely in order to discourage such speculation and to assert that the events described are not part of an eschatalogical scenario, but rather routine events within world history which must not be given more weight than they deserve. Each generation has its share of political and natural disasters, and each is tempted to think that its own experiences are somehow worse and of more ultimate significance than the sufferings of other generations, but "it is not yet the end": at the most, such events can be seen as "the beginning of labor pains," but the period from the first labor pains to childbirth may be short or long.

[End quote]

(As a side point, note also the '4 horsemen' section of Revelation 6. The 1st rider is crowned, the 2nd rider pictures war, the 3rd rider pictures famine conditions, the 4th rider picture death by war, famine, sickness, and wild beasts. But then in vv. 9-11 the executed "souls" ask 'when will justice take place.' They are not seeing the ride of the 4 horsemen as an indicator that "the end" is imminent.)

For the sake of brevity, I'll comment on Matthew 24:30/Luke 21:27 in another post.

Take care

5

1 Peter 1:11 - Christ's Spirit or Jehovah's Spirit

by Westenddave in

my question is about 1 peter 1:11. the 1984 nwt omits the word "christ", beside spirit, although it occurs in the earliest manuscripts: .

11?they kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit (the reference says: 2 sam 23:2 ) in them was indicating concerning christ (footnote says the spirit of christ which was in them indicated)... .

beside the word spirit, the reference quotes 2 sam 23:2, which says "the spirit of jehovah".

Bobcat

There is a close parallel to the phrase in Acts 16:7 (Cmp 1 Pet 1:11 with Acts 16:7)

5

1 Peter 1:11 - Christ's Spirit or Jehovah's Spirit

by Westenddave in

my question is about 1 peter 1:11. the 1984 nwt omits the word "christ", beside spirit, although it occurs in the earliest manuscripts: .

11?they kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit (the reference says: 2 sam 23:2 ) in them was indicating concerning christ (footnote says the spirit of christ which was in them indicated)... .

beside the word spirit, the reference quotes 2 sam 23:2, which says "the spirit of jehovah".

Bobcat

Here is how different translations render it.

I'm still checking my other references.

7

The new word links within the postings

by nonjwspouse in

as bobcat post 1204 pointed out.

this seems to be a new form of ad type links.

i've seen them on other places.

Bobcat

NonJWSpouse:

Do you use Chrome?

7

if i knew then what i know now....

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

if you could go back and utilize the knowledge of ttatt that you have now, how would it have impacted your decisions?.

for me, i would've made some different choices.

i now see that my depression over losing my position in the congregation and watching what i perceived to be my entire world fall apart around me, left me highly susceptible to influence.

Bobcat

Bruja:

Thank you very much.

I use Chrome. I checked the extensions and, sure enough, there was an extension called "RoboSaver." When I unchecked it the problem stopped. How it got to be installed I don't have the slightest idea.

Take Care

7

The new word links within the postings

by nonjwspouse in

as bobcat post 1204 pointed out.

this seems to be a new form of ad type links.

i've seen them on other places.

Bobcat

Just to reiterate -

After the page loads, it auto refreshes and certain words will be underlined as a link. When the mouse flies over them a small ad window pops up inviting you to click on it. It looks like it looks for certain words - for example, on Jeremiah's thread the word "depression" is underlined and linked to a cite that offers depression remedies.

57

A Clean Slate When You Die ??

by Perry in

for the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.

- romans 6:7 (nwt).

i got a chance to witness to my dad scripture for scripture for one whole hour over the holidays.

Bobcat

Perry:

Recently came across another verse that would argue that death does not wipe a person's "slate" clean:

(1 Peter 4:3-5) . . .For the time that has passed by is sufficient for YOU to have worked out the will of the nations when YOU proceeded in deeds of loose conduct, lusts, excesses with wine, revelries, drinking matches, and illegal idolatries. 4 Because YOU do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of YOU. 5 But these people will render an account to the one ready to judge those living and those dead.

Verse 5 says the ones practicing the things in verse 3 would eventually "render an account," which they wouldn't have to if death wipes a person's slate clean. Those who would render an account include, according to Peter, "those living and those dead."

Take care