Bobcat

Joined

• started 21 topics
• posted 2,187 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Bobcat

• 
  59

  Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

  by rstrats in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  I'll let some one else take them.
• 
  59

  Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

  by rstrats in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  rstrats,

  Believe as you want. It's not a problem to me. But you are free to see it however you wish.
• 
  59

  Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

  by rstrats in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Hi rstrats,

  First, (in case you did not know) the Jewish day ran from sundown to sundown. (approx 6pm to 6pm)

  Luke 23:44-46 shows Jesus died about 3 pm. Luke 23:54-56a shows that this was the day before Sabbath. They bury him before sundown.

  Luke 23:56b they rest on the Sabbath.

  Luke 24:1-3 at early dawn the next day they go to tomb but find it empty. presumably Jesus has been raised.

  Translating this into our days, and using Friday as the day of death:

  Fri, 3pm Jesus dies and buried before sundown.

  Fri, 6pm to Sat 6pm is Sabbath, nothing happens this day.

  Sat 6pm to Sun 6pm is first day of the week. Jesus raised sometime before "early dawn" Sunday morning.

  So, supposing a Sun 6am resurrection, Jesus is dead from Fri 3pm to Sun 6am, or roughly 39 hours. But by Semitic time reckoning it is 3 days (actually, to us, parts of 3 days). He is dead about 3 hours Friday, 24 hours Saturday, and perhaps 12 hours Sunday.

  Here is the Luke account at Lumina (for easy reference).

  As I pointed out in an earlier post, the "three days and three nights" statement of Mt 12:40 may have been an attempt to create an equivalence in the hearing of his listeners between Jesus' coming experience and with Jonah's past experience in the fish as stated at Jonah 1:17. With our modern time keeping and dependence in life on precision in our time keeping, this appears to us to be an egregious mis-counting of time. But to Jesus' listeners (with not a single watch or calendar among them) they would not have batted an eye over it. Nor is there any record in the gospels or Acts of any later dispute about it. To me, the seeming discrepancy is more due to cultural differences between us moderns and the ANE.
• 
  13

  Old Light - New Light

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  terry walstrom posted this exceptional link on another thread.

  i think it so amazing that it should have a thread of its own so everyone can have clear and easy access to the document.

  terry wrote:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Thanks Vanderhoven
• 
  59

  Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

  by rstrats in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Here is another article on the 3 days & nights question.
• 
  13

  The “Most High” allocated Yahweh to Jacob

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  deuteronomy 32:8-9 describes the most high (god) apportioning the nations to the gods according to “the number of the sons of israel/gods”.

  one can argue over the niceties of the meaning of that expression.

  of interest is that the “most high” allocated jacob to yahweh (“jehovah”).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Hey Doug,

  Check out the NET's footnote 14 here for some interesting discussion of differences between the MT and the LXX at Deut 32:8.
• 
  20

  Sources of John's vivid imagery

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.

  as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.

  1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Doug,

  I was able to download the PDF. Thank you very much. It is more recent than Ruiz (1999 vs 1989) so it may prove very useful. And thanks for the idea on contacting Ruiz himself. I wouldn't have thought of that on my own. Take care.
• 
  20

  Sources of John's vivid imagery

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.

  as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.

  1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  I have looked online for the book, "Ezekiel in the Apocalypse", without success. It intrigues me.
  In the process of searching, I came across this one, which might be promising. When you select it, it downloads directly (at least it did to my computer).

  Thank you Doug. The one by Ruiz supposedly showed verbal links to Ezekiel in Rev chapters 16-19. On Amazon I get nothing but "not available."

  
  
• 
  20

  Sources of John's vivid imagery

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.

  as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.

  1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  Hey Doug,

  Speaking of Revelation drawing on symbology from other sources, you wouldn't to happen to have available a pdf of this book would you?
• 
  23

  Moses, Soloman spoke to the entire assembly of Israel...How???

  by James Mixon in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  moses spoke to the entire assembly deuteronomy 31:3, leviticus19:2 and exodus 16:9 no sound amplification, we must remember he was speaking to 2 million people.

  solomon in 2 chronicles spoke to thousands maybe millions, so how the hell did folks a mile away hear..you need a sound system for 200 folks in a close building in the kh.... moses, solomon and others had a great set of vocal cords.....

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  A similar question was posed on stackexchange here.