Bobcat

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Posts by Bobcat

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  45

  Jehovah's Witnesses... Who sent the Star of Bethlehem?

  by JW Answers in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses... who sent the star of bethlehem?.

  the watchtower teach their followers that the star of bethlehem was sent by non other than satan... however as we take a look at the scriptures by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we begin to see that the star of bethlehem was not sent by satan, but used for the glory of god.a seasonal message to end the year.. watch now here :.

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  Bobcat

  Interesting perspective regarding the Magi, Bobcat.

  And that is all it is, a plausible chain of events. The account is terse in its explanations and is apparently written for an audience who will accept the account prima facie.

  Any thoughts on how why/how the Magi came to the conclusion that it was a Jewish king and not a king from a different country? Someone gave them accurate info.

  This is some commentary on the passage from the NICNT-Matthew commentary (R T France; p. 62):

  Secondly, the star which plays such a prominent role in the story invites reflection on Balaam's prophecy in Num 24:17-19 of the rise (LXX anatelei, echoed in Matthew's anatole, vv. 2, 9) of a "star out of Jacob and a scepter out of Israel," which is then interpreted as a ruler who will destroy Israel's enemies and take possession of the lands of Moab and Edom, a prophecy which was understood to point forward to the conquests of King David, and which thus also foreshadows the victory of the "son of David."

  "Thirdly, the likely influence of Balaam's prophecy suggests that perhaps Balaam himself, the man who "saw" the messianic star rise (Num 24:15-17), may also be in mind as a model for the magi. He, like them, was a non-Israelite "holy man" and visionary from the East: Num 22:5 locates his home on the Euphrates, while LXX Num 23:7 speaks of his being summoned from Mesopotamia and uses the same phrase ap' anatolon ("from the East") which Matthew uses in Mt 2:1. He, like the magi, was pressurized by a king (Balak) intent on destroying the true people of God, but refused to cooperate and instead took the side of God's people."

  Of course, the Balaam comparison can only be pressed so far. . .
  

  On how they came to their interpretation, I would think it would have to be some Jewish influence. How the rising of one particular star could be interpreted so specifically . . . that I don't know. This page offers a plausible scenario.
  
  
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  45

  Jehovah's Witnesses... Who sent the Star of Bethlehem?

  by JW Answers in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses... who sent the star of bethlehem?.

  the watchtower teach their followers that the star of bethlehem was sent by non other than satan... however as we take a look at the scriptures by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we begin to see that the star of bethlehem was not sent by satan, but used for the glory of god.a seasonal message to end the year.. watch now here :.

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  Bobcat

  • It is the star that they saw after leaving Herod and that led them to the house that would have had to be something else, not a real star. That part of the story would depend on whether a person accepted the possibility of a God who could intervene miraculously in that way.

    It wouldn't have had to be a particularly great miracle either. Even a skilled hypnotist can cause a willing subject to see things that are not really there. So it wouldn't even have had to been something anyone else saw.

    This may have been passed on to Joseph and Mary before the Magi left for home. The parents tell the story to Jesus as he is growing up. Jesus passes it on to his disciples while they are camped out during their travels. And Jesus makes the connections with OT passages. Matthew decides to use it in his gospel account. The other gospel writers don't mention the account because they weren't with Jesus during his travels. All very plausible.
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  45

  Jehovah's Witnesses... Who sent the Star of Bethlehem?

  by JW Answers in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses... who sent the star of bethlehem?.

  the watchtower teach their followers that the star of bethlehem was sent by non other than satan... however as we take a look at the scriptures by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we begin to see that the star of bethlehem was not sent by satan, but used for the glory of god.a seasonal message to end the year.. watch now here :.

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  Bobcat

  On Josephus not writing about this particular incident: Wikipedia offers a possibility Here.

  On the star: There would be no problem with the Magi reporting of seeing a star's rising and their interpreting of it. That was their business. They never said they followed it to Jerusalem. They merely reported having seen it and interpreted some meaning to it. How they arrived at their interpretation is not explained in the account.

  It is the star that they saw after leaving Herod and that led them to the house that would have had to be something else, not a real star. That part of the story would depend on whether a person accepted the possibility of a God who could intervene miraculously in that way.
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  45

  Jehovah's Witnesses... Who sent the Star of Bethlehem?

  by JW Answers in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses... who sent the star of bethlehem?.

  the watchtower teach their followers that the star of bethlehem was sent by non other than satan... however as we take a look at the scriptures by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we begin to see that the star of bethlehem was not sent by satan, but used for the glory of god.a seasonal message to end the year.. watch now here :.

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  Bobcat

  Hey Roddy,

  According to the passage (Mt chap 2) the Magi unexpectedly provoke Hero who ends up causing Joseph & company to flee to Egypt. Which then results in their return from Egypt. All of which Matthew sees as a fulfillment of a divine pattern destined to be fulfilled in Jesus. ("Out of Egypt I called my son.") Even the mayhem caused by Herod is seen by Matthew as having been foretold. (The quote in Mt 2:18 is from Jeremiah in 38:15 LXX. & 31:15)

  The Magi also unexpectedly fund the whole adventure (a la the queen of Sheba, who sets up a pattern of faith shown by gentiles).

  To say that the Magi were used by God, well, in a sense they were used, just like Balaam was used in the book of Numbers. In Numbers chapters 22-25 Balaam was 'used' by God only after he began his trip for selfish purposes. Matthew chapter 2 only shows the Magi being "used" by God after their having been summoned by Herod. In the account, they did not go straight to Herod. Nor does Matthew say that the star led them to Herod. Rather, Herod hears of the commotion that the Magi unintentionally caused and then summoned them to find out about it. (Mt 2:3, 7) Herod then shows his intention to kill the child and God intervenes. I don't see anything unexpected in that.

  As for the Magi going to Jerusalem first, well, that would be the expected place to go if they were searching for "the king of the Jews," would it not? So, there was nothing sinister in them going there in the first place. They went to the place one would naturally expect to find a "king of the Jews."

  The whole affair in Matthew chapter 2 is also recognized by many commentaries as a pattern in the whole book of Matthew where Gentiles show unexpected faith, but Jews (in general) show a surprising lack of it. So part of Mathew's purpose of including the account in chapter 2 is a larger theme woven into the whole book.

  It did not necessarily have to be God that "used" them initially. In the account it was only after Herod summoned them that God is spoken of as intervening to protect them (Joseph and family, that is). That would naturally be expected if Jesus was actually God's Son and God had a further purpose for him on earth, would it not?

  Anyways, that is my take on it. The WT take on the account assumes that the Magi were being used by Satan from the get go, and that the Magi went straight to Herod and that the star led them there. None of which the account in Matthew actually says. My take attempts to avoid all those false assumptions.

  But, as they say, "Your mileage may vary."
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  45

  Jehovah's Witnesses... Who sent the Star of Bethlehem?

  by JW Answers in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses... who sent the star of bethlehem?.

  the watchtower teach their followers that the star of bethlehem was sent by non other than satan... however as we take a look at the scriptures by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we begin to see that the star of bethlehem was not sent by satan, but used for the glory of god.a seasonal message to end the year.. watch now here :.

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  Bobcat

  I posted some commentary research on this topic here. The commentary's rendering of Matthew 2:2 sheds a very different light on why/how the Magi showed up in Jerusalem. It makes much more sense (to me at least).

  The only miraculous part about the "star" is when it leads the Magi from Herod's palace to Bethlehem. But it does not lead the Magi to Jerusalem. The 'rising star' indicates to them that "the king of the Jews" was born. Thus, they show up in Jerusalem hoping to find him.

  The reading of meaning into 'rising stars' was not unknown among such Magian priests. That they might have ideas about a 'Jewish king' may go back to Jewish influence from previous generations. (Dan 2:47-48)
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  3

  Are angels allowed to redeem others from all evil?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  genesis 48:15-16.

  15 and he blessed joseph and said, “the god before whom my fathers abraham and isaac walked, the god who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 [the angel] who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers abraham and isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” – .

  two-part question:.

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  Bobcat

  Footnote 30 at Gen 48:16 in the NET Bible, concerning "angel," says (quoted from here):

  Smr reads “king” here, but the traditional reading (“angel”) may be maintained. Jacob closely associates God with an angelic protective presence. This does not mean that Jacob viewed his God as a mere angel, but it does suggest that he was aware of an angelic presence sent by God to protect him. Here he so closely associates the two that they become virtually indistinguishable. In this culture messengers typically carried the authority of the one who sent them and could even be addressed as such. Perhaps Jacob thought that the divine blessing would be mediated through this angelic messenger.

  Footnote 31, concerning "redeem," but rendered "protect" in the NET, says:

  tn The verb גָּאַל (gaʾal) has the basic idea of “protect” as a near relative might do. It is used for buying someone out of bondage, marrying a deceased brother’s widow, paying off debts, avenging the family, and the like. The meanings of “deliver, protect, avenge” are most fitting when God is the subject (see A. R. Johnson, “The Primary Meaning of גאל,” Congress Volume: Copenhagen, 1953 [VTSup], 67-77).

  Here is a comparison of how the verse is rendered in various translations. It will give you a sense of how these translators understood the verse.

  This portion of Gen (48:9-18) has been proposed as having a chiastic structure. (See here.) In the chiasm, verse 15b and 16 form the pivot (or central) point. If so, then 15b (referring to God) and 16 (referring to the angel) form a sort of parallel idea.

  On this page, all of Gen 48:1-22 is arranged into a chiastic structure. But, as you can see, verses 15-16 again form the pivot point. And, as such, the phrase about 'God being his shepherd' and the phrase about 'the angel protecting/redeeming him from evil' would form a parallel idea. Each phrase describing the same thing.

  In a sense, Jacob acknowledges God as having 'shepherded' him (Gen 48:15) by means of an angel (Gen 48:16). The idea of 'shepherding' carries with it the implicit idea of 'protection.' Compare Psalm 23:1-4 here.
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  17

  Sickle Cell Case

  by Lee Elder in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  the sad reality for jehovah's witness children who must depend upon the courts to get critical medical care their parents reject for them, even when their lives depend upon it.

  to support the irrational blood policy of the watchtower society.

  https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2018-12-05-three-jehovahs-witness-families-taken-to-court-to-save-childrens-lives/.

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  Bobcat

  Marked.
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  37

  My sister passed away this evening

  by smiddy3 in

  1. social
  2. family

  it was only about two months ago she was diagnosed with lung cancer and she was a non smoker .. she was never a jw and she never held it against me that i was for 33 years.. we had a good relationship even though we lived in different states about 2000 miles apart,.. tears are rolling down my cheeks as i type this .

  r.i.p.

  sylvia .

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  Bobcat

  Very sorry for your loss of such a good sister smiddy. I wish you comfort and peace.
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  4

  JWResearch

  by Tigris in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so what’s up with the jwresearch .

  info site?

  i noticed it was down last thursday, and then came back up.

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  Bobcat

  I wonder if they had copyright problems? When I google "JWRESEARCH" all the hits seem to be associated with some consulting firm.
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  20

  Leaders or liars

  by ZindagiNaMilegiDobaara in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i was a thriving regular pioneer, doing all thr things wholeheartedly, had 16 bible studies, 7 attending meetings regularly, 11 magazine routes and 100's of rv's.

  you can imagine i was always runnin out of literature and always a good list of books to order every month.

  (not bragging,just stating facts.all this is wasted anyway).

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  Bobcat

  Zindag,

  Sounds a lot like Ezekiel 34:2-3.