Posts by Bobcat

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Was Blind asked:

Does anyone know of any witnesses who were on Dialysis during the 80's and 90's ?????

I remember a brother in our area who had to get dialysis. He eventually died. It was kind of sad to see how afterwards it looked like a part of his life was filtered out of his blood along with the poisons. I often carried him to the dialysis center and back home. This was very late 80s or very early 90s.

But, to your point. As I remember it, what was 'theocratically' looked for was for the entire 'pathway' (not sure if that is the correct wording) to be unbroken. The dialysis machine became a sort of extension of his own bloodstream. (i.e. was viewed that way.) I don't remember anyone making an issue of the procedure.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

TD:

Thanks for the chronology on WT blood changes.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Can't those nit wits see it the same thing ?????

I don't think they're stupid. --Just coldly pragmatic.

I agree. The fraction thing is an attempt to slowly work themselves out of the bind they put themselves in when they instituted the blood policy in the first place.

They should have listened to CT Russell. I think it was him who originally said that a religion should stay away from regulating medicinal blood use. I also have heard (here probably) that the motive for the current blood doctrine was more with the idea of creating a distinction between the Society and other churches rather than any Biblical reasons.

So, if true, they put the friends at risk unnecessarily to begin with. Now, although seeing the problem with the doctrine, they continue to risk the friends lives in order to protect themselves. Just coming out and saying they were wrong would open themselves to legal problems. So they continue to risk others lives to protect themselves.

(John 10:12, 13) . . .The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees-and the wolf snatches them and scatters them- 13 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Kurt Bethel asked:

What is the scripture that supports the idea that fractions are acceptable?

I would like to see that too. I posted above some scriptures that, to me, prohibit such an idea. (i.e. if you accept the idea that blood is Biblically banned for medicine.

To me, they painted themselves into a corner.

Take Care

24

CONVENTION FALSE INFORMATION - STOP IT BROTHERS!

by The Searcher in

we are always urged to "make sure of all things", namely, that anything we preach or teach is verifiable and true.

especially when we are referring to the bible.. at our convention, two things which came from the platform made me cringe, especially as one of the statements came from a regular and experienced convention speaker.

first; "over a quarter of a million new brothers and sisters were baptized last year - doesn't this show love on jehovah's part that he is allowing time for such ones to get to know him".

Bobcat

Searcher said:

"Brother Jackson urged the students to be sensitive to the direction Jehovah gives through his holy spirit, the Bible, and his organization."

Nice to see at least 2/3 of the credit given to the correct source!!

That would be nice. But I kind of think "his organization" is the trump card of these three. The implied meaning is that if "his organization" says something, then, the "holy spirit" and the "Bible" said it also. In this trio, "holy spirit" and the "Bible" are mostly treated as 'yes men.' (That is not to say that everything eminating from Brooklyn is wrong though.)

Take Care

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

TD:

Blood fractions were first allowed in 1958, when post exposure vaccines and antitoxins conatainging serum albumin and immune globulins were declared to be 'matters of conscience.'

That's interesting. I guess that all passed over my head. All I knew was that blood was verboten. Of course, in defense of my ignorance, the Society speaks out of both sides of their mouth. On the one hand they steadfastly maintain that blood is 'clearly prohibited' by the Bible. It's easy to miss the fine print, especially if one's relative good health casues the issues to not be forced on him/her.

In case I missed something, weren't there changes made around 2000 with regard to fractions? It was around (or shortly after) 2000 that other (non-blood) related events started bringing me out of my WT influenced stupor. But it was also since 2000 that the things I mentioned about blood (in my other post) started happening. And so all these events were slowly putting me into a thinking/analyzing frame of mind.

It is possible that during the 80s or 90s I got a vaccine or two. I don't exactly remember getting one, but it's possible. If I did, I evidently didn't view it as any sort of issue. As I mentioned, my family and I were blessed with very good health during those years. And it was a good thing because we were often on a month-to-month budget. We were always one health disaster away from going broke.

Take Care

24

CONVENTION FALSE INFORMATION - STOP IT BROTHERS!

by The Searcher in

we are always urged to "make sure of all things", namely, that anything we preach or teach is verifiable and true.

especially when we are referring to the bible.. at our convention, two things which came from the platform made me cringe, especially as one of the statements came from a regular and experienced convention speaker.

first; "over a quarter of a million new brothers and sisters were baptized last year - doesn't this show love on jehovah's part that he is allowing time for such ones to get to know him".

Bobcat

From WannaBeFree's quote from the 85 WT:

During this thousand-year judgment period, Jehovah evidently will give additional instructions, unknown to us at present, as new "scrolls" are opened. (Revelation 20:12) How marvelous it will be for the survivors of the "great tribulation" and for the resurrected dead to gain instruction and guidance from these further instructions as set forth on these unrolled "scrolls" of Jehovah and to carry them out delightfully!

Notice the oft used argument pattern:

"Jehovah evidently will give additional instructions, unknown to us at present, as new "scrolls" are opened"

"evidently (pure speculation) will give" and new "scrolls" (The quotes are only around "scrolls", but everyone reads "new scrolls")

Then, following "(Revelation 20:12)", everything is stated as if the idea has already been proved. And, of course, layered on top of this is the ever present atmosphere not to question "the slave class."

Here is the snippet from Revelation Climax:

But during the resurrection, countless millions of studies, based on the Bible and the new scrolls, will no doubt be conducted!

And here is the snippet from the "Knowledge of God" book:

New "scrolls" will then come into use. Evidently these are God's written instructions that will serve as a basis for educating earth's inhabitants.

24

CONVENTION FALSE INFORMATION - STOP IT BROTHERS!

by The Searcher in

we are always urged to "make sure of all things", namely, that anything we preach or teach is verifiable and true.

especially when we are referring to the bible.. at our convention, two things which came from the platform made me cringe, especially as one of the statements came from a regular and experienced convention speaker.

first; "over a quarter of a million new brothers and sisters were baptized last year - doesn't this show love on jehovah's part that he is allowing time for such ones to get to know him".

Bobcat

Searcher:

I always enjoy seeing your topics.

Have you figured out what the [not-new] scrolls refer to? The verses below may give a hint along with the fact that these [not-new] scrolls are mentioned in connection with the scroll of life.

John 5:24-29

24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life. 25 "Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. . .

On a similar note, the Society asserts that there are two different scrolls of life in Revelation. Here are the six verses that refer to a scroll of life:

Revelation 3:5

He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels. . .

Revelation 13:8

And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.

Revelation 17:8

The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.

Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

Revelation 20:15

Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27

But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb's scroll of life [will].

So, extracting just the pertinent parts, there is:

"The book of life."

"The scroll of life of the Lamb ... from the founding of the world."

"The scroll of life from the founding of the world."

"The scroll of life."

"The book of life."

"The Lamb's scroll of life."

Notice the shared and intermingled characteristics. Also, always in the singular and always with the definite article.

Take Care

12

WT Study for 6-17-12

by Bobcat in

i did not see a thread on the 6-17-12 wt study article, so i thought i'd put this here.. .

this is just a thought on unquoted references that sheds a little "light" on why they are not sourced.. in paragraph 4 of the lesson it says: 'as one reference work states, it is "the sum total of the interior man.

"' it is referring to what the bible means when it speaks of the figurative heart.

Bobcat

MyNameIsLame said:

Interestingly I found this site when I searched for figurative heart.

Aha! Maybe my memories aren't entirely shot. Mostly. But not entirely.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Walls Of Jericho: (clever name, by the way)

How about "not even touching the unclean thing?"

That is a good one too! I'm going to add it to my little list.

I tried showing these verses to a brother one time and told him I didn't think the Bible would allow for fractions. I just got the blank stare. It's funny how Heb 4:12 says that 'the word of God is alive and exerts power', but to most of the friends I think that should say "the word of the WT."

And I agree whole-heartedly with your discussion of fractions/hemoglobin.

Take Care