Bobcat

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Posts by Bobcat

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  24

  Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

  by Bobcat in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

  or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

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  Bobcat

  Thank you, Leo, from me too.

  And thank you Pterist.

  I had to print this out so I could digest this at lunch at work tomorrow. Thanks again.
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  24

  The 144,000

  by dabster in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading in revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.

  how do the jws explain that the 144,000 are identified as israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named?

  be gentle with me when answering.

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  Bobcat

  A Watcher:

  I apologize. I should have stuck with the subject and not with the person.

  My beef is with the Society, not with anyone affected by them.
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  83

  Final prayer after fieldservice today.

  by El_Guapo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hi guys,.

  i was asked to give final prayer today after the field service meeting.

  i asked for jah to bless and comfort the families of the newtown, ct massacre.

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  Bobcat

  This sort of makes sense. Paul said:

  (1 Timothy 2:1-3 NWT) . . .I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,

  Incidentally, the footnote for "concerning" in verse 2 says, "Or in behalf of."

  Right after that he said that Christ was the mediator between God and men (humans). (1 Tim 2:5) Since the Society doesn't accept verse 5, it makes sense that they don't accept verses 1 thru 3 either.

  Marvin had it right also: (Matthew 5:43, 44 NWT) . . .YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU;
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  24

  Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

  by Bobcat in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

  or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

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  Bobcat

  Rob:

  Thank you for the Josephus reference.

  I was using the New American Commentary on Daniel for reference. It is a 1993 commentary but it often cites other commentaries as well. I was also following the Society's Daniel's Prophecy book. With regard to Daniel 11, it is precisely at verse 20 that the WT commentary departs from the other commentaries. Verses 21 - 35 are typically said to describe Antiochus IV. But the Society lumps Selucus IV and Antiochus IV into verse 19 and suddenly jumps down to the Romans 160 years later. The whole prophecy before this is one king after the other as they ruled. But the slick WT commentary just eases you into a sudden 160 year jump. This is why they depend on you not reading any other literature.

  I also noticed that they reworked Daniel 11:22, namely the phrase, "the Leader of [the] covenant." In the Hebrew, both "Leader" (or "prince") and "covenant" are anarthrous. ("A leader of a covenant") The NWT makes it easier to think that this refers to Jesus. This makes sense since F Franz was the main translator as well as the main driver of WT prophecy understanding.

  Take Care and thanks again for the Josephus reference.
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  24

  The 144,000

  by dabster in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading in revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.

  how do the jws explain that the 144,000 are identified as israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named?

  be gentle with me when answering.

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  Bobcat

  Me thinks "A Watcher" is simply trying to arrest your attention.

  Me also thinks that "A Watcher" is not very capable in his reading of English. The NWT repeatedly says (in Rev 7:4-8) that the 144,00/12,000 are "out of" (Greek ek) "the tribes of Israel"/"[each] tribe"

  This follows the pattern of "the great crowd" who are "out of" the nations/tribes/peoples/tongues. This also follows the pattern in Rev 5:10, where 'persons are bought for God' "out of" every tribe/nation/ tongue/etc and made into a kingdom of priests.

  The group that is taken "out of" is necessarily smaller than the group they came "out of."

  I also think "A Watcher" is not as familiar with his Bible as he imagines he is. He appears to have forgotten that originally, the priests of the nation of Israel were to be taken from the firstborn of every tribe. In lieu of that, Jehovah instead took the whole tribe of Levi in place of every firstborn. What Revelation shows is a return to the arrangement as it was to be originally: The priests taken "out of" each tribe.

  Understanding it this way harmonizes with the fact that the 144,000 are referred to as "firstfruits" in Rev 14:5. (See also Jas 1:18)

  They're being "firstfruits" harmonizes with the fact that the harvest mentioned in Rev 14:15 is a grain harvest, not a grape harvest, a fact that the WT Revelation Climax book tries to artfully hide in its lying picture on page 213. The WT does this deception because they only want the 144,000 to be the "wheat" of the 'wheat and weeds' parable in Matthew 13.

  It also harmonizes with Hebrews 12:23 which refers to "the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens."

  Understanding it this way harmonizes with what Paul said about the Israel of God in Gal 6:6, that it includes, "all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct," namely, those who accept the torture stake of Christ. (Gal 6:12-15) Which Jesus equated with being one of his disciples. (Matt 16:24)

  Understanding it this way harmonizes with the fact that those who judge with Jesus, judge "the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt 19:28)

  To say that only the 144,000 make up 'spiritual Israel' requires that you explain away all these other references.

  But if you accept that the 144,000 (symbolic or not), are drawn from a larger "nation," then, you merely have to accept these other references as they are written.

  The GB, who persist in teaching the lies that "A Watcher" is regurgitating, are exactly like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son, who demands that his younger brother not be accepted back not into the family. (Luke 15:25-32)

  They are also like the "wicked" early workers in the parable of Matthew 20:8-16 who can't stand the idea of the later workers getting paid the same.

  And more and more they show themselves to have the same attitude as Shebna did. (See Isa 22:15-18)
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  24

  Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

  by Bobcat in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

  or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

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  3. 
• 

  Bobcat

  I was doing research on Daniel 8 and 11. What I was wondering was if there was any evidence that the Jews saw Daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in Antiochus IV.

  The explained fulfillments (re: Antiochus; non-WT explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically I was wondering was if the Jews (after the time of Antiochus IV) saw the Daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him? Or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.

  Thank you in advance.

  Take Care
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  17

  todays wt study: illustrating an illusion? not only for lurkers and faders.

  by prologos in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  an early video of the governing body showed them making weighty final decisions, such as choosing the right hue, the color of an apple in a preparation for publication.-- so we must assume that the articles -like todays study article- passed muster too.

  (october 15, 2012 page 22).

  can somebody smart put it up please.?.

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  Bobcat

  What is more incredulous is the fact that Jehovah promised Abraham that his seed would be like the stars, grains of sand on the seashore and like the dust particles of the earth for multitude, and yet the Society says that a mere 144,000 is the fulfillment that promise.

  They explain this ludicrousness by saying that the number of stars, grains of sand, and dust particles constitue an 'unknown number,' which entirely misses the point of the comparison.
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  73

  Punctuation within and without quotation marks

  by compound complex in

  1. social
  2. physical

  http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp .

  would someone please make this link clickable?.

  cc.

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  Bobcat

  Jeffro:

  In keeping with the thread, "thanks." (or, perhaps you prefer "thank$.")
• 
  73

  Punctuation within and without quotation marks

  by compound complex in

  1. social
  2. physical

  http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp .

  would someone please make this link clickable?.

  cc.

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  Bobcat

  KurtBethel:

  One more question about quotation marks:

  Clickable link opens a new tab so you do not leave this site.

  How do you accomplish this? Is there an ASCII code sequence you insert?
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  15

  Did Jehovah use non-believers to accomplish His will?

  by I_love_Jeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  (again we have a questioned geared toward the jehovah's witnesses who strongly believe the star was a horama (illusion) crafted by satan.

  this horama supposedly directed the magi who were apparently influenced by satan.).

  if so, then what is wrong with god allowing the magi to accomplish his will by sending them out to find the christ?.

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  Bobcat

  More from the NICNT commentary on Matthew concerning the star of Bethlehem and the magi:

  R.T France continues (p.62):

  "Secondly, the star which plays such a prominent role in the story invites reflection on Balaam's prophecy in Num 24:17-19 of the rise (LXX anatelei, echoed in Matthew's anatole, vv. 2, 9) of a "star out of Jacob and a scepter out of Israel," which is then interpreted as a ruler who will destroy Israel's enemies and take possession of the lands of Moab and Edom, a prophecy which was understood to point forward to the conquests of King David, and which thus also forshadows the victory of the "son of David."

  "Thirdly, the likely influence of Balaam's prophecy suggests that perhaps Balaam himself, the man who "saw" the messianic star rise (Num 24:15-17), may also be in mind as a model for the magi. He, like them, was a non-Israelite "holy man" and visionary from the East: Num 22:5 locates his home on the Euphrates, while LXX Num 23:7 speaks of his being summoned from Mesopotamia and uses the same phrase ap' anatolon ("from the East") which Matthew uses in 2:1. He, like the magi, was pressurized by a king (Balak) intent on destroying the true people of God, but refused to cooperate and instead took the side of God's people." [end of quote]

  Of course, the Balaam comparison can only be pressed so far.

  When you see all the other OT links Matthew provides in the opening of his gospel account, and the reputation the Matthew account has for exposing the lack of faith of the Jews versus the suprising faith shown by gentiles, one can see that the magi, although pagan, are being shown in a good light in comparison with the less than faithful Jews on the whole.

  It should be noted too, as others have brought out, the acount does not say that the star led the magi to Herod. Rather, the magi show up in Jerusalem asking of the where-abouts of the "one born king of the Jews." This idea that the star led the magi to Herod is the foundation of the Society's argument that the star was a wicked plot device by Satan. Jerusalem was the logical place to start if one were looking for a newly born "king of the Jews." And the royal house of Herod was also a natural place to start once in Jerusalem. The magi did not need a star to lead them there.