Posts by Bobcat

60

Genesis 3:16 - As to ALL Women... or One Woman? A Favor, Please...

by AGuest in

may you all have peace!.

so, as some of you might know (or discern)... or not... i am not your usual submissive/in subjection kind of girl.

given what some apparently expect of women... as wives, daughters, female friends... and in general... i was curious about the greater fulfillment of genesis 3:16, because many are of the belief that it applies to all women as to all men... (including those that aren't their husbands)... and not the just one being addressed at the time (eve as to adham).. personally, other than paul's position on women teaching in public (which was borne of what was occurring in the region at the time, due to by-then jewish culture and roman occupation)... and peter's admonishment for wives to submit themselves to their own husbands... that i know of nothing that validates a woman being in subjection to anyone other than her own husband, and even then such "subjection" is not puerile or unrestrained (so as to just be a given), but borne of love and respect for her husband (in which case it should not be difficult)... who is obligated to honor her, as well.

Bobcat

I posted comments concerning what the WT would call "headship" here. The comments were based on what Numbers 30 says about vows.

I think this covers some of my answer to your first question, at least from a Biblical standpoint.

There is an interesting take on Genesis 3:16 in the New American Commentary. The writer notes the lexical simlarites to Genesis 4:7

(Genesis 4:7 NWT) . . .But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?. . .

In 4:7, "craving" and "mastery" are the same words as in 3:16, "desire" and "dominate." The author postulates that if the similar phrasing is purposeful, then, in 3:16 it might fortell of an ongoing struggle for headship between the man and woman, with man coming out on top (no pun intended).

History, for its part, shows that male headship has often been tyrannical. So there is some basis for taking "dominate" in an overbearing way.

Take Care

12

Can Christendom be both Babylon the Great and the "net" gathering people for God's Kingdom???

by Kosonen in

the greatest man-book (wt-org.

) on chaper 43 defines what the net symbolizes, when jesus said:47 again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away.

(matthew 13:47,48) the explanation in the litterature of wt-org is that the net represents all organizations claiming to christian.

Bobcat

Kosonen:

Just for the record, there was a revamp of the WT understanding on this parable in 2008. Here is an extract from the WTLIB of the explanation:

*** w08 7/15 pp. 20-21 You Do Not Know Where It Will Have Success! ***

The Dragnet

15 More important than the number of those who claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ is the quality of those disciples. Jesus alludes to this aspect of Kingdom growth when he gives another illustration, one about a dragnet. He said: "Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering up fish of every kind."-Matt. 13:47.

16 The dragnet, which represents the Kingdom-preaching work, gathers fish of every kind. Jesus goes on to say: "When [the dragnet] got full they hauled it up onto the beach and, sitting down, they collected the fine ones into vessels, but the unsuitable they threw away. That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things: the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be."-Matt. 13:48-50.

17 Does this separating refer to the final judgment of the sheep and the goats that Jesus said would occur when he arrived in his glory? (Matt. 25:31-33) No. That final judgment will occur at Jesus' coming during the great tribulation. By contrast, the separating referred to in the illustration of the dragnet occurs during "the conclusion of the system of things." This is the time in which we are now living-the days leading up to the great tribulation. So how is a separating work taking place now?

18 Literally millions of symbolic fish from the sea of humanity have been attracted to Jehovah's congregation in modern times. Some attend the Memorial, others come to our meetings, and still others are happy to study the Bible. But do all of these prove to be genuine Christians? They may be "hauled up onto the beach," but Jesus tells us that only "the fine ones" are gathered into vessels, which represent Christian congregations. The unsuitable are thrown away, eventually to be cast into a symbolic fiery furnace, denoting future destruction.

19 As with the unsuitable fish, many who once studied the Bible with Jehovah's people have stopped studying. Some born to Christian parents have never really wanted to become footstep followers of Jesus. They have been unwilling to make the decision to serve Jehovah or after serving him for a while have ceased doing so. (Ezek. 33:32, 33) It is imperative, though, that all honesthearted ones allow themselves to be gathered into the vessellike congregations before the final day of judgment and to remain in a place of safety.

It is interesting reading this after several years of 'learning' since this came out in the WT. Just off hand, it has the typical WT over-explaining of every aspect of the parable. Specific meaning is assigned to every detail. For example, 'suitability of the fish' is determined at the time of a Bible Study. If you make it past that, your in.

The "vessels" represent "congregations." Why? Because we said so. I think chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation did not see it this way. Also see 2Tim 2:20-22.

Take Care

57

Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

by Balaamsass in

without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

Bobcat

I wonder if anyone from Canada can get a sample copy of this form (or type of form) that can be posted here. (And thus made available for JWs worldwide.) There are some neat ideas in this. Overuse of blood is dangerous too. This type thing seems to strike a nice middle ground for JW parents who don't agree with the Society but also face the Judicial realities that the WT imposes on them.

My WT nose says that this is something the Society will try not to let out of Canada among the general Witness population. It might even be something they don't acknowledge until it becomes a necessity for an individual family.

I also see the standard blood doctrine lie that they haven't changed positions on blood (aka fractions). Its all PR. 'We have always been the same, because we have always taught what the Bible says.'

24

Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

by Bobcat in

i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

Bobcat

Vidqun:

In addition, Jesus Christ would reject the Maccabean interpretation of "the disgusting thing causing desolation." As a first fulfillment, he applied it to the Romans, not the Seleucid kings (cf. Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luk. 21:20, 21).

Thanks for your post. You know this point about Jesus quoting from Daniel was also of great interest to me. I was thinking of several possibilities. One was the possibility that he saw some sort of parallel in Antiochus IV. As if the experience with Antiochus IV was something that was expected to repeat (more or less) later in history.

The commentary I was using at the moment (NAC) views Daniel 11:21-35 as referring to Antiochus IV. For verses 36-45 it mentions that scholars are divided over its application into two general camps: Some say it continues to describe Antiochus IV, whereas others view it as a future evil ruler (Antichrist) who has many similarities to Antiochus.

One of the reasons I liked this particular commentary was because it lets you know what views are 'out there.' That is something you don't get with the Society. They package and filter everything. Having studied the WT's Daniel Prophecy book several times, this NAC commentary struck me as far more open and honest. Not that I accept every conclusion he reaches, but he does reason his arguments and show what opposing views there are. I find that much more satisfying than the Society's methods. Although, I will say that it demands more mental effort than simply 'reading and accepting' like the Society wants you to do.

After I finish my immediate study of Daniel to get the historical context that I missed at WT meetings, I'm going to try to branch out further to consider Jesus reference to it.

But I will gladly consider anything you post on the subject.

24

Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

by Bobcat in

i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

Bobcat

Leo:

I withdraw my question. It turns out it was a bit premature.

Lars:

I'm going to look over your post. We may not agree on everything but the subject you discuss interests me very much.

Take Care

20

New Light on the New Light!!

by The Searcher in

just discovered that the 'new light' regarding the the identity of the 'slave' is not so new.

in the brochure "who are doing jehovah's will today?

", (brought out months before the annual meeting) it clearly states in the first paragraph in section 19 that "jesus would appoint the slave - during the time of the end!!

Bobcat

Good eye, Searcher.

9

Levels

by goddidit in

i have a few questions but first let me lay out what i think i know and please correct me if i'm wrong.. .

there are 'normal' jws and there are elders.

the elders have had a kind of promotion (they way they see it) and have some 'priviliges' and access to publications that 'normal' jws don't.

Bobcat

To be fair, all large organizations probably have some level of information control. For example, in a large business, the CEO and his circle know things that the next level of management don't know. They, in turn, know things that hourly workers are not privy to. The individual worker is aware of things that he might not let his children know about.

Some of it is very necessary. For example, HR keeps personal information from getting out (or should anyways).

What makes the Society (and perhaps others like them) extrordinary is the level of information flow control. Considering that it is all supposed to originate from one universal and accessible book (the Bible) and one man (Jesus) who said "all you are brothers," the amount of partitioning is amazing. But it has, as one of its purposes, control of the individuals within the organization. Even the disfellowshipping arrangement shows this control as it purposely isolates the individual, not just puts him out of the organization. The DFed person knows thinks that the run of the mill outsider does not. So it is necessary to neutralize him to the extent possible. (I'm just speaking from the WT viewpoint here.)

In the WT case, much of the information control is accomplished by extreme peer pressure.

Try breaking, or rather ignoring the system and see what happens: Read non WT literature to increase your knowledge of a Bible subject; Put in pioneer hours but do not sign up for pioneering. Pray for non-JWs during a cong. prayer. You won't be congratulated.

12

Quick JW Doctrine Question:

by breakfast of champions in

Bobcat

BoC:

Just a thought from the NIV Application Commentary:

First, the author (George H. Guthrie) quotes Leviticus 16:15 - 19 which details the Atonement day sacrifice and the cleansing of the Holy Place and the Tent of Meeting.

Then in his commentary he says:

In other words, the need for purification of the tabernacle had to do with its association with a sinful people. This holy space was made fit for continued interaction between God and his people by sacrifices that addressed the problem of sin. Correspondingly, the heavenly tabernacle, the author's conception of the place of God's presence (Heb 9:24), was made accessible to the new covenant people of God by Christ's sacrificial death. The heavenly things are purified in conjunction with the purification of God's people. . . Christ entered heaven to bring his sacrifice before God on our behalf. That this appearance before God was "for us" marks his act as distinct from the earthly high priest, who also had to offer a sacrifice for himself (Heb 5:1-3; 7:27-28). The author emphasizes this act as Christ's paving the way for God's people to enter his presence (10:19-22). 17

Footnote 17 says:

Attridge makes the important observation that the Day of Atonement analogy breaks down at this point. Our author [of Hebrews] says nothing of Christ sprinkling the blood in the heavenly realm since he does not wish to speak of the heavenly things as seperate from his death on the cross, they are one and the same. (See Attridge, Epistle to the Hebrews, 263)

There is a lot of difference of opinion among commentaries on this passage. I haven't seen any that pressed the idea quite as far as the Society. (I.e. the idea of Christ's sacrifice only becoming official when he presented it in heaven) Hebrews does speak of Christ as 'entering heaven' to act as priest in our behalf, and the passage in Hebrews does make some comparisons with the OT way of doing things on the Day of Atonement. At the same time, this is the only passage I can think of that takes the idea of Jesus' sacrifice beyond saying that he died. The presentation in Hebrews may have been solely for the sake of Jewish Christians. For gentiles, unfamiliar with Mosaic Law procedures, this level of detail may have been beyond what they needed.

I included the footnote to show that it is recognized that the analogy with OT procedure can only be pressed so far.

Hope this is helpful some.

Take Care

24

Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

by Bobcat in

i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

Bobcat

First off, this has been a very informative thread for me. I Thank all of you for your input.

Leolaia:

Just borrowing from the end of the last couple of posts. Here is an opinion question, just asking for your thoughts, based on the goodly amount of info you possess.

John Kesler said:

I know that most mainstream commentators say that Palestine is predicted in Daniel 11 as the place of Antiochus's death, but I don't see that the text requires that. What am I missing?

And your reply, in part was:

I think its very strongly implied.

So my question is, Just suppose that the end of Daniel 11 was intentionally vague. Your reply indicated expectations of details that don't seem to fit. But just going by what is actually said, without pressing expected details, could the account in 11:43-45 be true? Would the order of events be true if you simply took, 'he will come all the way to his end with no one to help him,' as meaning, 'he would die after this.' (regardless of the location)?

Thanks again for all yours (and others) input. There is alot more info on this thread than I ever expected.

15

A rumor has it....

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

acoording to this letter to the society posted on anoitedjw (i realize some here do not hold it in high regard) the wts has not had any articles about the memorial or any mention of jesus in articles leading up to the memorial (public version).

instead 2-3 articles on moses and one on judas.

also rumor has it that the wts will no longer be posting the amount of partakers, (perhaps for fear of how many are going to begin partaking?!?).

Bobcat

Sounds to me that whoever wrote the letter is trying to deliver a "polite" spanking to the GB, in a tone that says, 'We are going to do what's right, whether you 'children' do or not.'

The wording sounds like the writer(s) are dismissive about the F&DS 'new light,' 'But if this is what you GB believe, then why aren't you doing what you say about yourselves?'