Perry:
Very interesting link. Thanks
Take Care
Posts by Bobcat
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32Undeclared changes to the 2013 NWT
by Doug Mason inin the following from the 2013 edition of the nwt, the watchtower society indicates that when it released its initial 1950 edition, it considered the greek text provided by westcott and hort as its master text.
as a result of these additional masters, the wts made some undeclared changes to the 2013 nwt.
it does not list these changes or give any explanations.. greek text: in the late 19th century, scholars b. f. westcott and f.j.a.
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10
Awake October 8 1972 False Alarm About "Peace and Security"
by scotoma inthe watchtower study yesterday made it clear that the cry of peace and security has not occurred yet.. what they don't mention is their false alarm that they falsely pointed to events in 1972 as the cry of peace and security.
that was 42 years ago.. they did this with a special awake in october of 1972. they devoted the full issue to the subject.
it rivals the infamous "is it later than you think" special awake of october 8 1968 in its grandiose predictions.. the october 8 issue of awake 1972 is must reading in view of the latest discussion of peace and security.. here are a few exerpts with the grandiose statements in red.
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33
A Different View of "Peace and Security"
by Bobcat insince the wt this week has the prediction of a "peace and security" event, i thought i would include a comment from the new american commentary (nac, d. michael martin, pp.159-60) on 1 thessalonians 5:2, 3.. here is the wt's position, according to this week's wt study (sep 2012 study edition, pp.3 4):.
1 th 5:2, 3 is a "future development.".
it happens "just before that day of jehovah.".
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32
Contradictory Timelines - Do they REALLY think we are this stupid?
by piztjw inso in today's wt, as brought out in another thread, it is the nations that make the declaration of "peace and security.
" yet just a few paragraphs later they claim, in answer to their own question of who declares "peace and security", that the bible doesn't say.. in the very next paragraph they say that angels are holding back the destructive winds of the great tribulation.
to answer their next question as to what those angels are waiting for they say the wait is for the "annointed" to receive their second sealing, referring to a 2007 q/r which says the second sealing is finished only when the "annointed" (including the gb) are in heaven.
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Bobcat
Piztjw:
The problem with the Society's "Peace & Security" idea begins with their changing "are saying" into "cry" and "proclamation." (But see here.)
From there they build their (less than useful) prophecy which they themselves admit, 'the Scriptures don't tell us anything about how it will happen.' So basically, you can't know what the so-called "proclamation" will be about until after the following "sudden destruction" begins, at which point everyone else will also know.
I notice they don't say much about their own past 'declarations' concerning "peace & security." For example, when the Axis powers were moving successfully during the early days of WWII, the Society thought Germany was the scarlet wild beast of Rev. 17 and the Catholic church was the Harlot riding on her. Germany had 'gone into the abyss after WWI and had now come back out. It was supposed to conquer the world and drive JWs underground at which point it would 'cry peace & security' from the preaching of JWs, leading to God's wrath.
After the Allies started winning, it was them setting up the UN, and supposedly the UN would bring in world authoritarian measures, driving JWs underground, all within a few months of WWII ending.
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6
Does earthquake means revolution in Biblical symbolic language (dark sayings)?
by never a jw inis the answer to my question "yes" or is it more bs from rutherford, just like the meaning of matthew 8:11 according to the fds.. in page 19 of the book "millions now living will never die" you will find the following:.
"again jesns said that the war, famine and pestilence would be followed by earthquakes it was not unusual for jesus to use symbolic language; in fact, he often used symbolic language or dark sayings to conceal the real meaning until the due time should come.
in biblical symbology earthquake means revolution.
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Bobcat
Seismos (Strong's # 4578) mostly refers to earthquakes, but is also used for a windstorm at Matthew 8:24. BDAG defines it as, "a violent shaking or commotion, shock, agitation, in out lit[erature] only of natural phenomena, w[ith] the specific type qualified by context."
AMG's Greek-English dictionary says, regarding Matthew 8:24, "Generally, in the sea meaning a tempest, tornado."
The NT does not use it in the sense of 'riot' or 'uprising.' But poster Larsinger58, for one held to the idea that in Matthew 24:7 it meant that. I think there are others who hold to that idea as well.
Take Care
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6
Does earthquake means revolution in Biblical symbolic language (dark sayings)?
by never a jw inis the answer to my question "yes" or is it more bs from rutherford, just like the meaning of matthew 8:11 according to the fds.. in page 19 of the book "millions now living will never die" you will find the following:.
"again jesns said that the war, famine and pestilence would be followed by earthquakes it was not unusual for jesus to use symbolic language; in fact, he often used symbolic language or dark sayings to conceal the real meaning until the due time should come.
in biblical symbology earthquake means revolution.
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Bobcat
sorry, double post.
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5
This generation will--not pass away"? but according to the WT it has to!--
by prologos inwt writers have decreed, that "this generation" are the partaking anointed, not the general population.. according to the fresh light of july 15 2013, sealed anointed, fads& partakers all, will die and go to heaven before armageddon.. is the great tribulation including armageddon, not part of the end times prophecy, the wt hallmark?-- therefore:.
the generation, the anointed, have to die before the end , but.
jesus said that they* will not!
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Bobcat
Jesus said the generation will NOT pass away ---.
My first thought to that was: (Matthew 24:34) . . .Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. The subsequent "until" clause, modifies what will happen to "this generation."
But looking at it again, it's not really discussing how long "this generation" will last. Rather, it's saying that "all these things" will necessarily happen while "this generation" is still around. And the subject and focus of the preceeding verse is "all these things," not "this generation." Hypothetically, according to the wording of the verse, "this generation" could go on for some time after "all these things" take place.
That is another interesting angle: The WT has changed the focus of the passage from "all these things" to "this generation."
Thanks for pointing that out. I have to look at what I said above again.
Just as a side point for those lurking, "all these things" happening before 'this generation passes away' nicely ties together the whole discussion which originated with Jesus polemical remarks starting in Matthew 23:33, including the fact that divine judgment ("all these things") would befall "this generation." (23:36) This leads to the disciples question of "when will these things be?" in 24:3. This literary harmony of the passage also argues that "this generation" could not refer exclusively to Jesus disciples, the ones who would supposedly escape this judgment.
Take Care
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5
This generation will--not pass away"? but according to the WT it has to!--
by prologos inwt writers have decreed, that "this generation" are the partaking anointed, not the general population.. according to the fresh light of july 15 2013, sealed anointed, fads& partakers all, will die and go to heaven before armageddon.. is the great tribulation including armageddon, not part of the end times prophecy, the wt hallmark?-- therefore:.
the generation, the anointed, have to die before the end , but.
jesus said that they* will not!
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Bobcat
A good question to ask might be: 'How was it fulfilled in the 1st century?' The Society is applying it to "anointed Christians" in our time who (they say) will eventually "pass away." But 1st century Christians did not "pass away." It was the disobedient Jewish system that "passed away." Christians, in contrast, kept growing after the Jewish system ended. So in the 1st century, "this generation" could only refer to the Jewish generation that rejected Jesus. So how could "this generation" in our time (supposing it were to have a modern fulfillment) refer to those who accept Jesus? This is completely opposite of how it was fulfilled in the 1st century. If it did have a modern fulfillment, you would at least expect it to parallel its 1st century fulfillment, not be completely reversed.
Luke's account, with its surrounding context (Luke 21:29-36) especially highlights the difference between "this generation" and "you" (i.e. the disciples). "This generation" is to eventually "pass away" (vv. 29-32), "But" the disciples are to "watch themselves" so that they might "stand before the Son of Man." Note also the definitive nature of what is going to happen to "this generation": it "will pass away." Versus the tentative nature of what Jesus hoped for his disciples: 'Keep awake so that the day doesn't catch you off guard and you might keep standing before the Son of Man.' Jesus knows, in no uncertain terms, what will happen to "this generation." But he only expresses hope for what might happen to his disciples.
Note also the use of the verb "pass away." Right in the context of "this generation" it is "heaven and earth" that will pass away, "but my words will never pass away." "Pass away" in the context means, 'to come to nothing, be in vain, go out of existence.' The verb (parerchomai; Strong's 3928) is never used in the NT in the modern sense of "to die," as in a natural death. Instead, when used metaphorically, it has the sense of, 'to be destroyed, go out of existence.' (Compare 2 Cor 5:17; Jas 1:10; 2 Pet 3:10; Also compare its synonym (parago; # 3855) at 1 Cor 7:31; 1 John 2:8, 17) The verses at 2 Peter and 1 John 2 are especially interesting (as is also Revelation 21:1), for they show what Peter and John (1st person listeners to the "this generation" discourse) understood to be 'passing away.' They never speak of faithful Christians as 'passing away.'
Prologos, that is a good point that, according to the wording of the passage, some of "this generation" would be on hand to see "all these things." Contextually, "all these things" refers to the events of Matthew 24:15-22, 29-31. But the WT takes "all these things" to refer to all of Matthew 24:4-31. In either case, if "this generation" were as the WT wants us to understand it, then some of "this generation" would necessarily have to be around to see everything happen. This would preclude a total rapture of "this generation" before all was said and done.
Fear of disfellowshipping and being labeled an apostate are the glue that holds this nonsensical teaching together.
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Why the New World Bible Translation is special
by pixel inpage 4, 2014 yearbook .
jehovah used his own spirit-begotten sons to provide the original new world translation.
(rom.
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Will this Memorial be our last?
by pixel inthey just put up the march km 2014 on the private website.
most of it is same-old-same-old, with info here and there about the memorial.. somebody here might post the march km for all to see, i wont.. i just wanted to share the paragraph from page 2 q&a anticle: will you seize the opportunity?
upcoming memorial enables us to show gratitude .
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Bobcat
Copied (in part) from this thread. It includes some comments regarding "until he arrives." The bolded material is directly from the Memorial outline. The rest is my commentary on those statements in the outline.
The Lord's Evening Meal will be observed as long as Christians with the heavenly hope are on earth [Read1 Corinthians 11:26]
Based on the false premise that only certain Christians were commanded to keep the ceremony.
Ask, 'Why is this not spelled out in the NT? How do you go from the simple, "Keep doing this . . .," to the complicated 'who should/who shouldn't' that is in this outline? This smacks of a "tradition of men" that serves to nullify the clear command of God's Word. (Mt 15:3)
In WT parlance, "Keep doing this . . ." means 'Attend the Memorial meeting to passively observe.'
Once the Lord "arrives," he will take the last of the 144,000 home to be with him in heaven (Joh 14:1-3)
Those with the earthly hope will no longer observe the Memorial
Will not partake of the emblems then, so do not partake now
Simple assertion. But constructed from several other falsehoods: That only 144,000 are ever anointed. That only they are instructed to partake, although the NT does not contain any such instruction.
"Arrives" in the NWT at 1 Cor 11:26 is the same word translated "comes" in 1 Cor 4:5. Notice what happens when "the Lord comes":
(1 Corinthians 4:5) . . .Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
The 'Lord's coming' involves not just taking some to rule with him but also setting things straight among all mankind, some of whom will then "have his praise come to him from God," indicating a good outcome. This stretches the action associated with 'the Lord's coming' all the way out to the end of the 1000 year reign, after which he hands over the Kingdom to God.
Incidentally, "until" does not necessarily have the same meaning we might normally associate with it in English. For example, Matthew 28:20 says, "I am with you until the conclusion of the age." The phrase does not mean he stops being with them after "the conclusion of the age" has arrived. He is also with them afterwards. (Compare 1 Thess 4:17)
But concerning "until he comes (or "arrives")" in 1 Cor 11:26, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek NT has this comment:
Achris ("until") ou ("when") elthe (aorist subjunctive active of erchomai, "to come"). Subjunctive may have an affinity with a final clause, with the idea "until the goal is reached, that is till he comes."
This comment, like 1 Cor 4:5, shows that the idea of Jesus' 'coming' is not just a point in time event, but involves a wide range of activity involving mankind then alive and those to be brought back to life.
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If the memorial is in recognition of the new covenant, and the new covenant is for all those hoping to gain everlasting life (John 6:53, 54), then, it would stand to reason that the memorial will be observed until that goal is reached. The 144,000 are just a small part of a much larger picture that is effected by the giving of Jesus' 'flesh' and the 'blood of the new covenant' which the bread and wine symbolize.
Also consider that "forgiveness of sins" (Mt 26:28) in NT doctrine is closely related to everlasting life and abolishing death, which is the last enemy removed before Jesus' hands over his kingdom (1 Cor 15:26) This too argues that the symbolic Lord's Evening Meal will continue until what it symbolizes is brought to a completion.