Cheers Tornapart, I hope that some members, or lurkers can read it and take away some encouragement to never give up on getting themselves and / or their loved ones out.
:-)
WinstonSmith
JoinedPosts by WinstonSmith
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
Hey there Phizzy, great to hear from you! I agree completely that she is probably most worried about about losing me as a friend. I have reassured her that my view of her and relationship with her will not change as far as I am concerned and that the ball is in her court as to whether she wants to keep contact. We'll see.
I emailed her this afternoon and told her the news. She replied and said that she is not going to respond straight away, and that she really needs to think about how to respond to me. She said she feels like she has been hit by a sledgehammer.
I fired off a quick reply to reassure her that whatever her decision I would still be her friend. That's the honest truth. I'm at the point now where what will be will be.
BE WHO YOU ARE, AND SAY WHAT YOU FEEL. THOSE WHO MIND DON'T MATTER, AND THOSE WHO MATTER DON'T MIND.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
So in my earlier post, I mentioned that we were planning to catch up with Sister T this past Saturday night to let her know that I was going to DA. Sister T has been very supportive over the last year, so we kinda felt we owed her to tell her ourselves rather than just let her hear an announcement out of the blue.
In the email exchange we had while we arranged dinner at a local restaurant, I pretty much wrote again what I had written in my email to mum. Remember the message didn’t say that we were DAing, but that there were some things that we were not okay with within the organisation.
Her response was “Please don’t disassociate, leave the door open” and she admitted (as she has in the past) that the organisation has its faults, as do the elders, but all we need to do is love Jehovah and be obedient to those taking the lead. On hearing that I thought that after hearing all of the things we have talked about over the last year or so, if this is still her line of thought, then perhaps I won’t get through to her. She is such a lovely person and has been on occasion treated like crap by the congregation, but for her there must be an organisation I guess.
I didn’t get a chance to reply so the next opportunity we had to catch up was Saturday night for dinner. I had no real plan as to how I was going to tell her, I thought I would just let the conversation flow and when it gets round to WTS stuff like it always does, I would bring it up.
That was not to be.
I have never seen her so high in my entire time knowing her. She was like the energizer bunny talking non-stop. We could not get a word in. I think her reaction was to cover over it and talk about other stuff in the hope that it would go away. We literally had no opportunity to say anything that we wanted. We went our separate ways at the end of the evening and Mrs Smith and I were like “Poor thing, she is so wound up she can’t bear to even think about it.” It was obvious that the way she was acting was way different to normal. At one point, even her daughter told her to calm down.
So that was my last chance to try and talk to her, but it turned out to be nothing.
I plan to send her an email this afternoon explaining and making it clear for her. I will be emailing my letter to the COBE this evening, and at the same time sending a PM containing the letter to all 215 of my JW friends on Facebook.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
Hello K99,
Yes indeed the WTS likes to add whatever the heck they like to the scriptures. The good thing about 1 John is that in verse 22 the writer goes on to explain exactly what he has been talking about. Anything additional to that are the additions of men.
Of course, mum is smart enough to play a cool game, and if I know her at all, she simply won't tell anyone that I am DA and never bring it up. "Our little secret."
Thank you for taking the time to read through and comment!
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
So where was I? Oh yes, Mum’s reply to my email to her telling her that Mrs Smith and I didn’t want to be JWs anymore. This was the moment where I would learn whether or not my dearly loved mum would ever speak to me again. As mentioned, she was away for a day trip so her reply was brief:
“Please don’t be anxious about it at all. Not upset with you at all. So relax, and I will email you when we are back.”
Words cannot communicate how I felt after getting that. I felt like another massive weight had been lifted. I care so much for mum and was so worried what her reaction would be, not because I don’t trust her, but because I know how strong the pull of the WTS is. I was so relieved.
Later on we got to have an online chat and we talked it over a bit more. Mum said a number of really cool things like “Do what you have to do, be true to yourselves” “A lot of it I agree with you” “I go along with a lot of what you said like the lack of support etc” “The sex abuse thing really bothered me.” “Hearing things from an elders perspective was interesting.”
She did want some clarification as she thought my previous email had made it sound like we were being disfellowshipped. I assured her that we were not being disfellowshipped but that at the time I sent that email we were considering if both of us should DA. I told her that we had decided that only I would so that Mrs Smith could keep in touch with a couple friends. I reminded her that nowadays the WTS directs that DA people are treated the same as DF people. She said that the OM book uses 1 John 2:19 to say prove that the treatment is to be the same. I replied and said yes, when you read that scripture isolated on its own in the middle of a paragraph that talks about DA and DF it can give that impression, but when you read the scripture in context, it says no such thing, but is rather talking about the anti-christ. She said she would “check that out” and suggested that I say something similar to the elders. I chuckled and said yeah, that’s a good way to get a one way ticket to a judicial committee!
I sent her a copy of the DA letter I have written and then we finished up with her saying that she loved us both, cared about us very much and always would. She was sorry we were so distressed but assured us that she loved us and was proud of us. She told us that the decision had to be right for us and no-one else.
A few days later (last Wednesday) she emailed and asked if we had sent the letter to the elders yet. I said that I hadn’t as we were hoping to catch up with Sister T and talk it over with her. We felt like she should hear it from us rather just hear an announcement out of the blue. Mum said that she was glad that we had made a decision and could be true to our own feelings. “Good on you. I also agree with a lot of what you say, but there are other things that make me stay, so be it. Regardless of how it affects me I am proud of you sticking up for your beliefs.” I assured her that nothing has changed in our relationship from my point of view, just some points of view.
She admitted that she had a few tears about it but I got the impression it was more to do with the physical distance between us and not being able to talk face to face. She said again that there is a lot she agrees with us on and that she would love to discuss. She sometimes gets upset with the rules and regulations and no encouragement. I said that I am always ready to talk, and that if she wanted to send me a list of questions then she was more than welcome to.
We have had a couple of on and off online chats since then, but all is well. I have so much respect and love for my mum. I cannot put in to words just how I feel. She is a special woman, and I just fricken love her so much.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
@Listener: I swear I'm not! I'm just writing it all up as I have time promise.
@Giordano: Always great to hear from you, and thanks for sharing some more of your story. The WTS has a terrible effect on famillies, and I hope to minimise this as much as possible, and escape with what I can.
@Pickler: We LOVE our new place. So conveniently located to so many things! The child abuse angle really hit a point with mum. People who have a heart can't honestly turn away from it and write it off.
@Oubliette: I will type up some more soon about how things went with mum. I don't really want to play by any JW rules, but writing a DA letter is the one and only thing I will do. Once I hit SEND, I am done with it. The rest of their rules can kiss my butt. The letter is more for me anyway. I need to have a mental line in the sand, and s ending a letter of DA, while it does mean following their BS rules, it will provide me with that line. It will also stop anyone spotting me in a crowd and coming to say "Awwww we miss you at the meetings!"
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
We thought long and hard how we might break it to mum that I was going to DA. The good thing though was that long conversation we had. She was smart enough to realise that something was up, but also cool enough to let it slide until we were ready to talk about it. This is one of the many reasons I love my mum dearly. She is a sharp one, and knows how to read a situation.
The conversation we had was a good foundation to build on, so in an email, in amongst other things, I said that we had been having some stress lately that related to the things we talked about that time we were together. I just mentioned it briefly so that if she wanted to pick up on it she could, or ignore it if she wanted. I have always been careful not to be preachy, but to allow people to speak when they want to speak.
In her reply she asked what stuff was going on to cause us stress, and said that she didn’t want any surprises so just tell her what it was. She said that reading between the lines it sounded like we were leaving the congregation, but whether this was as inactive or something else she was not sure, but she would prefer to know clearly.
Well, we thought this is it, make or break time. Time to man up and put our big boy undies on. Here is my reply:
“Our conversation has played on our minds since you left. It was the first chance we had to speak honestly about how we have been feeling about life as a JW. To be honest those feelings are stronger now. We are to be frank, over it. There is just so much that we can't reconcile in our minds between what the bible says and the way that things are done in the organisation. I'm talking from a general publisher point of view and also from an elders point of view. From an organisation point of view and a doctrine point of view.
My experience as an elder and seeing how it works behind the scenes was a shock to the system, and has left me rattled for a long time. Mrs Smith’s experience with her anxiety and the total lack of interest and care from the congregation and elders (and retarded comments in the WT don't help either) has left her feeling empty and unvalued. Its quite stressful really. Its distressing enough to just write this knowing that the veneer of something we have believed and lived for most of our lives is peeling.
We are at the point now where we don't really want anything more to do with it. It is really tough because the elders and the Society come down harsh on those with doubts, even if those doubts are based on sound logic and reasoning. They are simply not interested in hearing what you have to say, they just want to know if you think the Faithful and Discreet Slave are Jesus' representatives on earth - trust me I've been there as an elder.
It is also very difficult because we also know what is expected of family and friends. Yet in our minds we can't honestly continue to call our Jehovah's Witnesses when we just don't consider ourselves to be such. What are we supposed to do, go on living a lie? Or make it clear how we feel so there is no deceit and shenanigans? Unfortunately we know that the cost of being honest can be high.
We haven't decided what we will do. All this doesn't mean we are bad people and will suddenly turn into serial killers. We are exactly the same people, we just believe something different. We still respect what our friends and family believe, everyone has the right to follow their beliefs and we will always support that. For us though, we believe something different hope that others can understand that.
We haven't done anything about this officially because we haven't decided what we will do. I'm sure we will disappoint a lot of people but surely telling the truth is better than living a lie? These are not decisions that we are making lightly. We are agonising over them.
I'm sorry if this upsets you. I know it will, but I also fervently hope that I have somehow communicated this in a way that makes sense, and that you can understand.
I don't know what else to say except that we love you guys, always have, and always will, no matter what. Please know that as far as we are concerned our love and respect for you guys has not changed one iota. We will as usual keep in touch like we always have. But we also understand if you don't feel that you can reciprocate. We are well aware of what the Society expects to be done in this situation.
I hope you can understand.”
We clicked SEND and then sat back and let out a big sigh. It was now out of our hands, and whichever way this was going to go, this is where it starts.
I love my mum so much and would hate to not have her in my life, so it was a very tense and nervous 5 hours that passed before she replied. She was away for a day trip, so the reply was brief…
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
A few months passed after our big conversation with mum, and even though we kept in regular touch as we always have, the subject never came up. In the time that passed since we talked, Mrs Smith and I have drifted further and further away from the congregation. The last time we were in a Kingdom Hall was for the Memorial this year, back in March. We haven’t been out in field service for almost a year.
The sad thing is all these months passed, and we never heard anything from anyone from our local congregation. We would get a text message once a month from our Group Overseer looking for our reports, but there was never any query in to how we were, or if we were even alive. I guess you really learn who your friends are when you go through something like this. The only person that as consistently kept in touch and that we have still caught up with reasonably regularly has been Sister T, about whom I have talked on here many times. We have been able to be honest with her and she agrees with a lot of what we have talked about, even going so far as saying that she is convinced that Satan has entered the organisation and that the time will soon come when Jehovah needs to clean it out. Despite this, she remains loyal to the organisation, and to be honest, I believe that she needs it, as it gives her some sort of steadiness, or routine for her life. We once entertained hopes that we may be able to help her wake up and move on, but now doubt that. It may actually be better for her to stay in to be completely honest.
Over this period, there have been some frustrating moments. We have run in to people and they have asked where we have been, there is an elder (from another congregation) who works not far from me who waited on a corner one morning so he could tell me that he had heard that we hadn’t been to meetings, and we have been invited to the birthday party of one of the guys at work.
Each of these occasions had led to me not being completely truthful, and this kind of thing does not sit well with me. My mumma raised me to be honest, and I don’t like deceiving people.I also knew that we couldn’t keep going on like this with mum, that we could not pretend everything was normal, when in actual fact we were inactive, and don’t want anything to do with the organisation.
You might remember a while back that Mrs Smith and I had a discussion about whether or not one or both of us should disassociate ourselves. At the time we decided against it because we felt that we should not have to play by the WTS rules since there is no scriptural backing for disassociation. We wanted to just fade away and be left alone. If you look back at page 7of this thread you will see a post from me on February 9 th 2013 where I went into some detail about this.
However, even after moving situations like those mentioned above keep happening. And again, I do not like being dishonest, blaming Mrs Smith’s anxiety for our absence. While we are happy with our progress out of the cult, we are both getting more and more frustrated with wanting to just break free and be done with it. We realise that if things stay as they are, we can never be truly free of this organisation.
Mrs Smith and I have discussed this at length, and we have decided that I will disassociate myself, while she remains ‘in’ – keep in mind though that we are inactive anyway so the only reason for Mrs Smith to not DA is that she can remain in contact with a couple of people, still meet up with them for coffee, and hey, if the opportunity arises, sow some seeds of doubt.
With the decision made, we both felt like another weight had been lifted. There have been a series of weights lifted over the last couple of years: me stepping down as an elder, Mrs Smith waking up, us deciding not to go door to door anymore, and deciding not to go to any meetings any more. It is another big step away from this high control and uncaring group. What have I got to lose? Not much really, but I will have drawn a line in the sand that will make people leave us in peace.
The plan is to email my letter to the COBE, and at the same time send a personal message to all my JW friends on Facebook that contains an opening line and then a copy of the letter I sent to the COBE. This way they can all see the letter and there is none of the mysterious “I wonder what it was all about” chit chat that goes on when people just hear an announcement.
But before that happens, we need to tell mum and my sister. We also feel like we should tell Sister T.
Back in those comments I made back when we were thinking of DAing I said this:
“As we see it, the hardest part is going to be breaking the news to my Mum, my sister, and Sister T. My Mum and I have always had a good and open relationship and I honestly think that if I take the time to explain to her my reasons she would be okay with it…Of course we are not so naive as to think that the cult shutters might slam down too. Mum is a very reasonable and logical person and I have mentioned in emails to her that some recent decisions and actions by the organisation and elders have left me 'uncomfortable' (I referred to but did not specifically mention the child abuse policies). My sister as you know has recently had some awful experiences with her local elders. Who knows, maybe me taking this step will help her grow the balls she needs to stand up to them and her prick of a husband and begin to lead her own life. Sister T has said on more than one occasion that "she doesn't know what she would do without us" and "the only reason I'm in the truth is because of you" By having just me disassociate, Mrs Smith can remain in contact and ease the blow while also continuing to help Sister T (and maybe others) wake up.”
Our big long conversation with mum about how we feel about the organisation has happened since I wrote the above comment. The chat that we had and mum’s reaction to it gave us some hope that we may be able to explain to her that I was going to DA, and that she might be okay with it.
So this was our next challenge. Explaining to mum that things had progressed to the point where we both did not want anything to do with the JWs anymore, and what we had planned to do about it.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
Hello Giordano, I appreciate your comments! I think too that just coming out and saying these things may not always be the best course. It pays to lay some groudwork first to ease people into the idea of what you are saying.
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336
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith inwe had to go off grid for a time, time and half a time as we thought we had been outed.
fortunately it was a false alarm, but it was a stressful time.
i asked for my original diary thread to be deleted in case there could be anything on there to identlfy mrs smith and i. i am always very careful when posting, and am sure there was nothing on there, but felt it best to have it removed in order to be as cautious as a dove.
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WinstonSmith
So, having just finished talking in a general sense about how sexual abuse is handled in the organisation, and giving the specific example of Candace Conti, I decided to make it even more real for mum, and bring it close to home. I also began to explain more about how all this had made me feel.
I started by telling her that in my city, there are no less than four elders currently in prison or before the courts for child sexual abuse, and that there is a government enquiry in to sex abuse in churches in Australia and that JWs were part of the investigation. Mum says “So how does this make you feel?” I had to be honest so I said “As a result of my experiences, the Conti case, and now these cases in Australia, I no longer believe that elders are appointed by holy spirit.”
Here again, I thought that this might be the moment where she throws me off the nearest bridge. But the interesting thing was that due to the line of reasoning I had been using up this point, and the unaccusing way I was speaking, she was actually all ears and the cult shields were not in their automatic upright position. She was genuinely interested and I could see that what we had been talking about had made sense to her. If I had just come out and said “blah blah blah child abuse, blah blah blah Conti, blah blah blah no holy spirit she would have burst into tears over losing her baby to the dark side. Mum is very smart and since she could see that I was relaying all this in a calm but confident way, I think she realised it was not a knee jerk reaction, but something we had thought long and hard about.
One of the things I had said earlier in the conversation was that the constant use of the Shepherd book was not fair to the sheep. The elders have the rule book, and only tell you when you mess up. Continuing this thought I said “Let me tell you something else that is not known to the general populace of the congregation, and the reason why I can’t believe that elders are appointed by holy spirit.”
“Each of the four elders that are currently in prison or before the courts for sex abuse committed these acts before they were appointed as elders. Note carefully that this happened BEFORE they were appointed. Yes they raped kids some time before they were appointed by holy spirit as elders in the congregation.”
I gave mum some background on how things happen when the CO comes. How before he comes the elders get together and discuss all the brothers in the congregation. Those that are publishers who might be ready to step up to MS are named and discussed. Likewise, MSs who might be ready to step up to being an elder are named and discussed. Those that the body agree on have their names put forward to the CO and are discussed with him at the Friday night meeting. The CO asks questions about them, the elders make their recommendations, and the CO notes it down. At the end of the visit, the CO gives the elders a visit report which notes all sorts of things including that the recommendations have been sent to the Society. A couple of weeks later the body of elders get a letter from the Branch saying thanks for your recommendation, we are pleased to advise that Brother X has been appointed as a MS and Brother Y as an elder. At the very next midweek meeting, before the meeting starts, two elders pull the recommended one into the back room and say hey bro, the Society agreed with our recommendation to appoint you as an elder. But before we do that we have to ask you a couple of questions. Question one: Is there anything from your past that might prevent you from being appointed as an elder? Question two: Are you currently, or have you ever been involved in the sexual abuse of children?
“So here is my point” I said to mum, “For these four elders one of two things must have happened. Either they answered ‘yes’ to question two (in other words they confirm that they have been involved in sex abuse in the past) and the elders let the appointment go ahead anyway. Or they lied by answering ‘no’ and....” Mum finished for me “And the holy spirit allowed them to get appointed despite a history of child sex abuse.” She got my point.
“If the holy spirit had anything to do with this, there is no way that this these guys would ever be considered for being an elder. The holy spirit would have seen to it that they were low hour publishers, or put some other block in the way of him ever even being considered.” Mum said she saw my point and understood my reasoning on the matter.
Mum asked again “So how does this make you feel?” but wanting her to come to her own conclusion and not state anything outright, I said “how would YOU feel?” She replied “I would be very uncomfortable with everything that I had seen and experienced.”
Her next question was “So knowing this, how can you go witnessing?” but again, wanting her to come to her own conclusion I said “What would YOU do?” Her reply was “Well I would feel I would still have to preach as this is in the scriptures.” The preaching thing, and the lack of evidence for it in the scriptures is a whole ‘nother can of worms that I didn’t want to get into at that time. So I just said what we had done when we first started waking up, that when we go out we just use the bible, and use scriptures that have meaning for us like Revelation 21:3, 4.
She said she understood and then asked “So how can you stand to sit at the meetings listening to what is being said?” Again I asked her how it would make HER feel. “Well I would go along because the scriptures say to, but I would be sitting there bored and miserable.” I just looked at her, shrugged my shoulders and said “Yup, that’s pretty much it.” At that point in time we were still going to the meetings.
Mum asked if I had talked to anyone about my questions. I replied by saying that having served as an elder there is no way that I would ever ask anyone about my questions. The elders will try and reason with you to bring you back in to alignment, but if you stand firm, the next thing you will get is a registered post letter inviting you to a judicial committee.
And that was where we left it. For the rest of the time that we were together it never came up again. She acted exactly the same toward us as she always has. In the ensuing months, it never came up, and we never raised it or pushed it. We thought the best thing was to be there and ready to answer any question when she felt the time was right.
But wait, there’s more...