IANAL (I am not a lawyer) but do not confuse "punative" damages with "compensatory" damages.
Compensatory: countervailing: compensating for
"punishment": To exact punishment, inflicting punishment
Posts by Quotes
-
8DOES Quotes owe the WT $100,000?
by confusedjw inbut doesn't the wt have to first prove damages to get the $100,000 ?.
"your honor - people are leaving and prevented from coming into our private organization after they read quotes.watchtower.ca".
"this hurts you how?".
-
-
-
87
My undisfellowshipping
by kwintestal inrevised statementhere's the sound byte.
(i hope it works!
kwin
-
-
Quotes
(Quotes plants his tongue firmly in his cheek and quips...)
The second announcement does *NOT* contradict the first announcement. Rather, it further clarifies and refines the previous announcement. This is not flip-flopping with Kwin's eternal fate, but rather is "tacking" like a boat on the sea. Although there may appear to be deviation, in fact there is always forward movement. Jehovah's
Holy Spiritholy spirit is steadily moving the elder body forward. Are we not thankful for theelder arrangementElder Arrangement?(Quotes returns his tongue to where it belongs...)
-
354
Watch Tower sues Quotes for $100,000 plus plus plus...
by Quotes incourt file no.
superior court of justice.
watchtower bible and tract society of .
-
-
-
354
Watch Tower sues Quotes for $100,000 plus plus plus...
by Quotes incourt file no.
superior court of justice.
watchtower bible and tract society of .
-
-
Quotes
Thanks for your input, everyone.
Yes, this is pretty amazing. "Confidential information", indeed! I don't recall it being labelled as such when I was delivering it to strangers homes!
Please do "Advertize, Advertize, Advertize" this. Post to your web site. To those that helped me with Press Releases last time, please contact me if you can help me again -- or don't even bother to contact me, just send new Press Releases.
~Quotes, of the "Fair Dealing" class
-
354
Watch Tower sues Quotes for $100,000 plus plus plus...
by Quotes incourt file no.
superior court of justice.
watchtower bible and tract society of .
-
-
Quotes
I was served notice yesterday that Watch Tower has launched a suit against me due to my web site: http://quotes.watchtower.ca/
A scan of the Watch Tower's Statement of Claim is available: http://quotes.watchtower.ca/scans/2005_09_8_watchtower_statement_of_claim.tif (note: this is a multi-page TIFF file, so be sure to use the often forgotten "Next Page" button on your TIFF viewing program. Just look at the toolbar when you are viewing the document and you should see the "Next Page" button, usually a small right-pointing arrow or down-pointing arrow).
Or, to save a big file download, below is the complete text from the Statement of Claim. At this time I will not be commenting on the Statement of Claim, other than to say it is, in my opinion, filled with lies, made-up "facts", and non-sequitors.
Oh, be sure to not miss paragraph 31 for an interesting, and bizarre claim: the Watch Tower's books and materials "embarrass[es]" the Watch Tower!
Note: I have removed my name below, in order to not forever tie my name with Watchtower in the Internet Archives and Search Engines; however I have kept my name in the scan (link above) because I have nothing to hide and because Google doesn't catalog TIFF files.
----- BEGIN STATEMENT OF CLAIM ------
Court File No. 05-CV- 296308PD2
SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE
BETWEEN:
WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF AND
WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF
Plaintiffs
and
[Quotes]
Defendant
STATEMENT OF CLAIM
TO THE DEFENDANT
A LEGAL PROCEEDING HAS BEEN COMMENCED AGAINST YOU by the plaintiffs. The claim made against you is set out in the following pages.
IF YOU WISH TO DEFEND THIS PROCEEDING, you or an Ontario lawyer acting for you must prepare a statement of defence in Form 18A prescribed by the Rules of Civil Procedure, serve it on the plaintiff’s lawyer or, where the plaintiff does not have a lawyer, serve it on the plaintiff, and file it, with proof of service in this court office, WITHIN TWENTY DAYS after this statement of claim is served on you, if you are served in Ontario.
If you are served in another province or or in the , the period for serving and filing your statement of defence is forty days. If you are served outside and the , the period is sixty days.
Instead of serving and filing a statement of defence, you may serve and file a notice of intent to defend in Form 18B prescribed by the Rules of Civil Procedure. This will entitle you to ten more days within which to serve and file your statement of defence.
-2-
IF YOU FAIL TO DEFEND THIS PROCEEDING, JU ENT MAY BE GIVEN
AGAINST YOU IN YOUR ABSENCE AND WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE TO
YOU. IF YOU WISH TO DEFEND THIS PROCEEDING BUT ARE UNABLE TO
PAY LEGAL FEES, LEGAL AID MAY BE AVAILABLE TO YOU BY
CONTACTING A LOCAL LEGAL AID OFFICE.
Date SEPT 2/05 Signed by “F.YOUSSEF” Local registrar
Address of Court Office
10th Floor
M5G 1E6
TO: [Quotes]
-3-
CLAIM
1. The Plaintiffs claim:
(a) a declaration that the Defendant
(i) has infringed the copyright in the Plaintiffs’ Religious Works as defined below, contrary to sections 3, 27, 34 and 35 of the Copyright Act;
(ii) has directed public attention to his wares, services and business in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause confusion in Ontario with the wares, services and business of the Plaintiffs, contrary to sections 7(b) and 7(c) of the Trade-marks Act and the common law tort of passing off;
(iii) has breached the contract relating to use of the Plaintiffs’ “Watchtower Library on CD-ROM” (the “CD-ROM”), which contains reproductions from the Plaintiffs’ Religious Works;
(iv) has unlawfully misappropriated, used and disclosed confidential information contained in the CD-ROMs;
(b) an interim, interlocutory and permanent injunction restraining the Defendant from using the domain name “watchtower.ca”, or any other domain name, trade name or trade mark that is confusing with the Plaintiffs’ The Watchtower trade mark;
(c) an order requiring the Defendant to assign the domain name “watchtower.ca” to the Plaintiff Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada
(d) an order requiring the Defendant to deliver up, or destroy under oath, within 3 days of the date of the Order, all reproductions of the Plaintiffs’ copyright materials, including the original and all copies of
- 4 -
the CD-ROMs, or any part thereof, in any form whatsoever, including on the web site “watchtower.ca”;
(e) an accounting of the Defendant’s profits arising from the sale of all reproductions of the CD-ROMs, or any part thereof, and any other reproduction or use of the Plaintiffs’ copyright materials;
(f) damages for copyright infringement and conversion;
(g) damages for trade mark infringement and passing off;
(h) damages for breach of contract and breach of confidence in an amount to be determined prior to the commencement of trial;
(i) punitive damages in the amount of $100,000;
(j) pre-judgment and post-judgment interest pursuant to the provisions of sections 128 and 129 of the Courts of Justice Act, R.S.O. 1990,
c. C.43 as amended and any recoverable taxes on the amounts awarded including G.S.T.;
(k) the Plaintiffs’ costs of this action on a substantial indemnity basis; and
(l) such further relief as to this Honourable Court seems just.
A. THE PARTIES
2. The Plaintiff Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (“Watch Tower of Pennsylvania”) is a non-stock, non-profit corporation incorporated in 1884 under the laws of the State of , It has a place of business at 25 , Watch Tower of is one of the corporations used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to promote religious worship and assist in carrying out their religious objectives.
-5-
3. of is the publisher and owner of copyright and trade marks in the religious publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses, including all magazines published under the trade marks “The Watchtower” and “Awake!” (collectively, the “Religious Works”).
4. The Plaintiff Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada (“Watch Tower of Canada”) is a non-profit federal corporation used by the religious community of Jehovah’s Witnesses in to promote public religious worship.
5. of ’s head office is located at 13893 Highway 7 in ( ), . of has licensed Watch Tower of Canada to reproduce and distribute the Religious Works and to use The Watchtower and Awake! trade marks.
6. The Defendant [Quotes] is an individual residing in ,
. [Quotes] registered the domain name “watchtower.ca”, and
operates a website at “http://quotes.watchtower.ca”, that reproduces the
Religious Works of the Plaintiffs. [Quotes] had been one of Jehovah’s
Witnesses until 1998 when he ceased his association with Jehovah’s
Witnesses.
B. PLAINTIFFS’ PRINT PUBLICATIONS
7. In July 1879, the religious community of Jehovah’s Witnesses began publishing and distributing the monthly religious periodical Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence. The first issue had a circulation of 6,000 copies.
8. Jehovah’s Witnesses began their public ministry in in 1880, discussing the Bible and distributing the magazine Zion’s Watch Tower.
-6-
9. On , the name of the periodical Zion’s Watch Tower was changed to its present title, The Watchtower.
10. Today, The Watchtower is the primary Bible study aid for members of the faith, is published bi-weekly, and currently has an average printing of 26.4 million copies. For each of the last 10 years the annual circulation in of the English edition of The Watchtower has been in excess of 8,000,000 copies.
11. Awake! has been published continuously by Watch Tower of Pennsylvania since 1946, is a general-interest religious magazine, and has an average printing of 22.8 million copies. For each of the last 10 years the annual circulation in of the English edition of Awake! has been in excess of 7,000,000 copies.
12. The title of each periodical is a trade mark within the meaning of section 2 of the Trade-marks Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. T-13. By virtue of very significant use of The Watchtower and Awake! trade marks for generations, these marks have become extremely well-known across , including , and are distinctive exclusively of the Plaintiffs and their religious publications.
13. Each edition of The Watchtower and Awake! is a compilation of original literary works and artistic works. Each compilation was created by Jehovah’s Witnesses pursuant to a contract of service, in the course of a religious vocation or divine calling, with Watch Tower of Pennsylvania. Pursuant to section 13(3) of the Copyright Act, Watch Tower of Pennsylvania is the first owner of all copyright in the Religious Works as “compilations”, within the meaning of s. 2 of the Copyright Act.
-7-
14. The literary and artistic works contained in each Religious Work were created by Jehovah’s Witnesses pursuant to a contract of service, in the course of a religious vocation or divine calling, with Watch Tower of Pennsylvania. Pursuant to section 13(3) of the Copyright Act, Watch Tower of Pennsylvania is the first owner of all copyright in the literary and artistic works contained in each Religious Works.
15. The Plaintiffs’ copyrights are protected in pursuant to various international treaties including the Berne Convention and the Universal Copyright Convention.
16. At a minimum, each Religious Work published within the last fifty years, and each literary and artistic work contained therein, is entitled to copyright in , pursuant to Section 6 of the Copyright Act.
C. PLAINTIFFS’ CD-ROMS AND WEB SITE
17. In 1993, Watch Tower of Pennsylvania produced the Watchtower Library on CD-ROM, an electronic compilation of most of its religious materials published since 1950. Subsequent up-dated versions have been released (collectively, the “CD-ROMs”).
18. Pursuant to Section 13(3) of the Copyright Act, Watch Tower of Pennsylvania is the owner of all copyrights in the CD-ROMs as “compilations” and computer programs.
19. The CD-ROMs are intended for personal use and study by Jehovah’s Witnesses. They include a License Agreement that each user must agree to before being able to use the CD-ROMs.
-8-
20. The License Agreement states that each CD-ROM is for the personal use of Jehovah’s Witnesses only, and prohibits inter alia any reproduction of the CD-ROM, any posting of the contents of the CD-ROM on the Internet, or any dissemination of large sections of the CD-ROM to anyone who has not agreed to be bound by the terms of the License Agreement.
21. The content of the CD-ROMs is not readily available to the general public. Some of the content is intended only for Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the introductory letter that precedes the License Agreement in the CD-ROMs restricts their use to Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Plaintiffs have protected the confidentiality of the CD-ROMs by requiring each user to agree, prior to use, to the terms of a License Agreement, which restricts use of the CD-ROMs and their software to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Accordingly, the CD-ROMs constitute confidential information.
22. Since 1997, Watch Tower of Pennsylvania has operated a website at http://www.watchtower.org. This is the official web site of Jehovah’s Witness. The website reproduces Bible-based tracts, brochures, and articles from several issues of The Watchtower and Awake periodicals.
23. The website at http://www.watchtower.org is accessed by millions of
Internet users each year, including thousands who are located in .
Accordingly, the domain name “watchtower.org” has become well-known
in , and is associated exclusively with of
.
D. THE DEFENDANTS ACTIVITIES
24. In November 2000, the Defendant registered the domain name “watchtower.ca”. The domain name was inactive until about March 2004.
-9-
25. In March 2004, Internet users who accessed the “watchtower.ca” website, were redirected to the “http://quotes.watchtower.ca” website, which is also operated by the Defendant.
26. The Defendant registered the domain name “watchtower.ca” in order to trade on the significant reputation and goodwill associated with the Plaintiffs’ well-known The Watchtower trade mark. Specifically, the Defendant sought to misdirect Internet users who were looking for the official website of Jehovah’s Witnesses in , to the Defendant’s web site.
27. The Defendant’s web site also employs hidden words or metatags in the web pages, in order to misdirect Internet users who are looking for the Plaintiffs’ official website to the Defendant’s website. The metatags used by the Defendant include “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” “Jehovah,” “Witness,” “Watchtower,” “ ,” “International Bible Students” (the former name of Jehovah’s Witnesses) and “Official” The only reason for the Defendant to use the word “official” in its metatags is to create confusion among Internet users.
28. The Defendant’s web site reproduces and exhibits the Plaintiffs’ Religious Works, and specifically, all or substantially all of over 450 literary and artistic works that were first published between 1955 and the present.
29. The Defendant obtained these copies by reproducing the contents of the Plaintiffs’ CD-ROMs, contrary to the explicit terms of the License Agreement to which the Defendant agreed, and contrary to the Plaintiffs’ exclusive rights pursuant to section 3 of the Copyright Act.
- 10-
30. The Defendant’s purpose in operating the website is not “for the purpose of research and scholarship”, as suggested on the web site. There can be no “fair dealing” when the Defendant (i) has appropriated the Plaintiffs’ trade mark for use in the domain name “watchtower.ca”; (ii) has sought to misdirect Internet users to its web site by the use of confusing Metatags; (iii) has reproduced thousands of pages from the Religious Works; (iv) has reproduced dozens of articles and dozens of pieces of artwork in their entirety; (v) has not placed any restrictions on others’ use of the web site, but has in fact encouraged others to archive or download the entire web site, and (vi) has created a search engine that selectively quotes from some of the Religious Works but not others.
31. The Defendant’s main purpose in operating the website is not “fair use”, but rather to try to embarrass the Plaintiffs by quoting selectively from some of the Religious Works in a manner that misleads Internet users as to the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses in .
32. By his actions as aforesaid, the Defendant:
(a) is infringing the Plaintiffs’ copyright in the Religious Works and in the CD-ROMs, pursuant to Sections 3, 27, 34 and 35 of the Copyright Act;
(b) is directing public attention to his Internet website in such a way as to cause or be likely to cause confusion in Canada, and specifically in Ontario, with the services of the Plaintiffs, contrary to sections 7(b) and 7(c) of the Trade-marks Act and the common law;
(c) is breaching the License Agreement governing use of the CD ROMs; and
(d) has misappropriated, used and disclosed the Plaintiffs’ confidential information in the CD-ROMs.
-11 -
33. Despite repeated requests, the Defendant has refused to cease his unlawful activities, and will continue to violate the Plaintiffs’ rights as aforesaid unless restrained by this Honourable Court.
34. As a result of his activities, the Plaintiffs have suffered and will continue to suffer damages, including but not limited to loss of reputation and goodwill.
35. The Defendant’s willful and malicious conduct, including his continued refusal to stop his infringing activities, justifies an award of punitive and exemplary damages.
36. The Plaintiffs propose that this action be tried at .
Date of issue: SEPT 2/05
BERESKIN & PARR
Barristers & Solicitors
,
M5H 3Y2
Jonathan Colombo
L.S.U.C. #32188W
Tel: (416) 957-1613
Fax: (416) 361-1398
Solicitors for the plaintiffs
(Form 4C under the Rules)
WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY et al .
Plaintiffs
and
[Quotes]
Defendant
(Short title of proceeding)
Court file no. 05-CV- 296308PD2
SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE
Proceeding commenced at
STATEMENT OF CLAIM
____________________________
DYE & DURHAM CFS
Name, address, telephone and fax numbers of solicitor or party
BERESKIN & PARR
Barristers and Solicitors
M5H 3Y2
Jonathan G. Colombo
L.S.U.C. #16940W
Tel: (416) 364-7311
Fax: (416) 361-1398
Solicitors for the Plaintiffs
----- END STATEMENT OF CLAIM ------
-
12
Had my Return Visit (tm) today
by Quotes inin case you missed it, i had a jw and her mother call on me last week of july.
(see anti-witnessesing: passive agressive style effective for quotes).
well, this afternoon dana came back, this time not with her mother (maria) by with another woman named joyce-lynne.
-
-
Quotes
sphere asked: "How, how, how could I have been such a brain dead JW?"
My personal answer to that question: "I was raised in it, and didn't know any better". It makes me feel better, even though I hadn't figured it out by the time I was 17 and got baptized. It wasn't until my late 20s that I finally wised up. "Why, why, did it take me so long????"
Hey, does anyone know if there is a good deconstruction of the book "The Bible: God's word or Man's" book on the web? Might save me a lot of time. -
32
Did you enjoy being a JW?
by JH inevery time i went to a meeting, book study, or whatever, the great majority of people looked as if they were truly happy to be a jw.
their smiles looked genuine.
they seemed to love talking to each other.. i, on the other hand, wasn't really happy to be at the meetings.
-
-
Quotes
A potentially very deep question.
As a kid, when I was at school, ostracized, standing in the hallyway every day during the national anthem (like as if I couldn't hear it out there!) I did not feel "happy".
As a kid, when I would remain seated at a Major League Baseball game during the National Anthem, and could hear people around me say "what the f*k is their problem? Don't they know people died for this country" I did not feel happy.
When Public School had a Halloween or Christmas assembly, complete with plays or movies or dress-up or whatever (I don't really know because I was always safely in the library reading a book) I did not feel happy -- especially the one year I was sharing the library with a kid that was being *PUNISHED* by not be allowed in the school assembly.
When I was at the meetings, I felt..... sleepy.
When I was at JW Conventions, I felt (depending on the venue & seating location): hungry; bored; hypothermic; sun-stroked; acrophobic; painfully cramped and uncomfortable; cushy and comforable and... sleepy.
Except at lunch. Dad gave us the WTS "Monopoly" money (I guess they didn't want to actually use cash for buying the -- now discontinued -- hot meals, but didn't you have to get the fake money from money changers? (And we all know what JC thinks of money changers...) I would get a Soyburger (whoops, did I reveal the secret? I know they were called hamburger, but if there was one molecule of meat in there I'm sure it was by mistake); a pudding (Vanilla or Chocolate -- never any strawberry, I guess there was too much possibility of them using blood to make it the red color); and a Cream-sicle: fake orange on the outside, fake cream on the inside. And them I felt happy.
Seriously, they drudgery of being a JW (meetings, prep, service) was simply something you had to do. I felt zero emotion for it. Your question, for me, would be similar to asking if I feel happy brushing my teeth.. I just do it (brush) 'cause I have to.
~Quotes, of the "Pearly Whites" class
P.S. I am happy with the results of my brushing: solid teeth. If only Watchtowerism had some results -- any results! -
12
Had my Return Visit (tm) today
by Quotes inin case you missed it, i had a jw and her mother call on me last week of july.
(see anti-witnessesing: passive agressive style effective for quotes).
well, this afternoon dana came back, this time not with her mother (maria) by with another woman named joyce-lynne.
-
-
Quotes
CN, I accept no responsibility for the side effects of making someone think!
carla, it only took 2-3 minutes, because at that point I was going slowly, and drawing them out step by step. I could have just asked them "approx when did the catholic church apostasize" but I didn't want to ask a "loaded" question they way they always do. I wanted the conclusion and statement of their beliefs to come from themselves.
Funny statement made by your daughter; at one point today, in pure frustration, I said "Dana, I understand what you are saying, but you totally are not addressing my question. It's like we're both talking to each other yet not having a discussion"
They really did a good job of, as I said above, "asnwering the question you wish you were asked" -- after all that is what they practice for! Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall a "Reasoning" book entry that says "What if someone asks how godless, pagan, apostate catholics selected the books for our new testament?
Note to people of faith: please accept that I do not mean to offend with my question. I think it is a valid question, and can lead to some very interesting discussions about faith, the bible; unfortunately, my "conversation starter" never got started.
~Quotes of the "My wife is Cathoic, but she is not a pagan" class -
12
Had my Return Visit (tm) today
by Quotes inin case you missed it, i had a jw and her mother call on me last week of july.
(see anti-witnessesing: passive agressive style effective for quotes).
well, this afternoon dana came back, this time not with her mother (maria) by with another woman named joyce-lynne.
-
-
Quotes
In case you missed it, I had a JW and her mother call on me last week of July. (see Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes)
Well, this afternoon Dana came back, this time not with her mother (Maria) by with another woman named Joyce-Lynne.
After all the questions I asked her last time (but careful to not ask the "programmed" questions common in the "Reasoning" book) she started with exactly ONE answer.... sort of.
She explained how (by referring to the "What does god require of us" brochure she left last time) God's Kingdom would be ruled by Christ, from heaven.
DDDDUUUUHHHHH.... well, no kidding, Sherlock. That was what you said last time. My question a simiple, practical one, and was: how exactly would this king *COMMUNICATE* with us, his loyal subjects: telephone? email? writing on the wall? burning bush? giant booming voice from the sky????? And if its just some human that *CLAIMS* to be speaking for, and communicating with God/Jesus, how will we really know? Isn't there a possibility for confusion?
Well, after explaining to Dana that she really hadn't answered my question (I would have been happy with the basic cop-out of "I/We don't know") she started to read the bible scripture with the Lord's Prayer ("you see, it says kingdom on ..... EARTH, as it is in ....HEAVEN) I realized that she really was being a good politician: "Answer the question you WISHED they had asked you."
So I decided to use her bible verse to change the subject myself -- before she could, I guess!
I told her before I asked her a question, I wanted to verify something. Over the next 2-3 minutes, I got her to agree that she believed that the Catholic Church had apostasized by the end of the first century, and were "pagan" (her word!!) by the third century.
"So...." I asked "why do you use that book, called the bible, as your Holy Book? The selection of what would be included in the New Testament, and what would not make the grade and be left out, was performed by a committee of Catholic Bishops and Scholars in the Thrid Century. If the contents of the New Testament truly are an inspired message from god, you would have to believe that either (a) god was acting through those 'pagan' Catholic scholars, to ensure that his message got preserverd, or (b) they just got lucky (whew!!!)" (I didn't give her the obvious (C) option: that the process of biblical book selection reveals a rather human source).
Well, it took about 45 minutes for Dana and Joyce-Lynne to really understand the question. At first they simply didn't know what I was talking about, to which I said "I'm disappointed. I thought you were Bible Students, I thought you would know about the history of your own Holy Book." They kept going off about "the catholic church didn't write the bible in the third century" -- which of course isn't what I said at all. I had to start with the basics: that there were many, MANY, *MANY* gospels floating around by the third century, and it was entirely because of that abundance of riches that the Church had to boil it down and separate the wheat from the chaff -- and that was the crux of my question: a Pagan, Apostasized Church committee selected the New Testament, how can you reconcile that with it being truly holy?
It really became an amazing example of watching someone speak out of both sides of their mouth: Joyce-Lynne mentioned the Apocraphal texts -- which I jumped on: "See, thats an example of what I'm talking about. The Apocraphal texts are books and letters that kind of, almost, sort of, made the final cut but not quite. But there were many, many MANY more that didn't even get "apocraphal" status.
Finally (!!!) they started to understand my question, and Joyce-Lynne said, essentially, that although there were other letters, that the items we now have as the New Testament were always kept separate and special and were always, right from the day they were written, known to be special and kept separate and revered. I said, with a sincere but sad smile, "I don't want to be rude Joyce, but you are totally wrong. That is simply not correct, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that. However, I guess you then feel that the 3rd Century Catholic Selection Committee simply had to "rubber stamp" their approval of the divine texts, since they were already seperated out?" THey replied "But we know the bible is true and inspired" and Dana read the "All scriptures inspired..." scripture.
"Dana" I said, smiling but unsuccessfully hiding my growing agitation at such zombie-like circular reasoning, "I'm asking you a basic, fundamental question about the 3rd Century compliation of the New Testament, and your response to me is 'we can trust the bible is inspired because the bible says it is inspired'. That is circular reasoning, a logical fallacy. I have had similar conversations with a Muslim, 'trust the Koran, it is inspired, the Koran says so.'"
Near the end, Dana reads Revelation "...bring to ruin those ruining the earth" and she says the fact that someone writing 2000 years ago, before modern day pollution, could know about pollution on a global scale, proves that the bible is inspired.
Woah! That was a new one on me. But I came back with: "I thought the begining of Revelation says it is signs and symbols? And here you are saying it refers to a literal runination of the globe? Maybe it is symbolic of something, since that is what Revelation says it is: filled with signs and symbols!"
"But [Quotes], what else could it possibly mean? Surely it could *NOT* be symbolic!"
"Joyce, I'm not going to pretend that *I* know what it symbolizes, all I'm saying is that Revelation says, in Revelation, that it is signs and symbols."
Dana says then that there are signs and symbols, but also some non-symbolic stuff too (like this verse, I guess...and the literall 144,000 too, I guess!) but before I respond, Joyce asks me again what else it could possibly mean.
"Well..., a writer in a largely agrarian society, in the first century, likely "earth" refers to the fields, the soil, the farm. Plundering armies back then would raze farms to the ground -- ruin them -- and that was likely a bad thing to a society so heavily dependent on agriculture, and surely they felt that god would "ruin" someone that ruined the earth -- soil -- fields in this manner."
So, Joyce promised that next time she would show me the greek word used was indeed refering to the Planet Earth, not simply the ground or soil. Once again, they, aparently arbitrarily, decided when I had had enough of their "delightful, correct words of truth". But Dana did give me a copy of "The Bible: God's Word or Man's" so I guess she gets a placement out of it.
I guess I've got about 6-8 weeks to do my homework before thier next visit.
~Quotes, of the "really didn't have the time or the patience for them today" class -
22
From MSN... I may barf any second...
by mkr32208 inthe bible was one of the few books many of the refugees had among their possessions.
on friday, several jehovahs witnesses walked the floor of the astrodome, where thousands of cots were set up, to offer their services.
what "services"... buncha weenies!
-
-
Quotes
Just wanted to add:
=============
On Friday, several Jehovah’s Witnesses walked the floor of the Astrodome
=============
I call BullS**t!!!!! (on the JWs that told this story, not on the parent poster above).
This reminds me of the time, after 9/11, when the official Watchtower story was that Brothers in NYC were walking around Ground Zero, offering their "delightful, correct words of truth".
Pure, and utter BS, at least for Ground Zero, that's for sure. Ground Zero was a close crime scene. The biggest, most important crime scene, in USA's history. Do you really think that the FBI, CIA, etc, was going to let just anyone in to walk around? Even firefighters who worked Ground Zero were not allowed their once their shift was complete. To suggest that JWs were allowed in is PURE BS!!!
As for the Astrodome.... let me see... after days of stories about looting, people stealing other people's food & water, etc, am I to believe that the authorities let just any Tom, Dick, Harry, or JW, into the Dome???? I think NOT!!!
~Quotes, of the "rational analysis" class