Posts by shepherdless

20

How did all these civilizations survive the flood?

by losthobbit in

flood 2304 bc (http://creation.com/the-date-of-noahs-flood).

neolithic 8500-1500 bc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_neolithic_cultures_of_china).

egyption dynasty 4 2613 to 2494 bc, dynasty 5: 2494 to 2345 bc, dynasty 6: 2345 - 2181 bc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_ancient_egyptian_dynasties).

shepherdless

However, there are theories that some flood may have occurred long, long time ago. This would explain why we have stories about floods coming from different cultures that didn't have contact with each other prior to globalization.

A while ago, I tried to find details on all these various flood stories from different cultures. I came to the conclusion that the assertion that there are multiple flood myth stories is, itself, a myth. It seems some people have gone to great extent to dig up and list every ancient and medieval reference to a flood or deluge and try to use it as evidence.

Worse, most accounts only appear after a culture has had contact with Christianity and the biblical flood myth. To pick a ridiculous example, Lebor Gabála Érenn, (compiled in the middle ages in Christian Ireland, and repeats biblical accounts) is cited by some as evidence of another culture with an ancient flood myth.

Most accounts that resemble the Noah's ark story are Sumerian or Mesopotamian in origin. All of these accounts seem to stem from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story of Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh has so many similarities to the Noah's ark story, it has to be from the same source, or one is copied from the other. In both stories an extremely large rectangular boat is built (admittedly different dimensions) and is loaded with animals and Utnapishtim/Noah's family. The flood comes and the boat eventually comes to rest on a mountain. Both Utnapishtim and Noah release birds to find land in the process.

I think the story in the Epic of Gilgamesh is the source for the Noah's Ark story (not vica versa) because:

The Epic of Gigamesh is much older than any written account of Noah's flood.
The Epic of Gigamesh was a widely repeated story in the region and there is around 1000 years difference in age between the earliest and the last known written accounts.
Early Israelites would have heard the stories of the Epic of Gilgamesh from one or more neighboring peoples.
Isrealites captured in Babylon would have heard the stories of the Epic of Gilgamesh from their captors.
The flood part of the Epic of Gilgamesh is part of a wider set of stories that make much more sense (as a work of fiction).
The Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't purport to be in any way historical.

I should add that am no professional researcher or historian, and I would be interested in any other views.

64

Transubstantiation?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

does anyone here accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?

if so, please elaborate.

theology: the changing of the elements of the bread and wine, when they are consecrated in the eucharist, into the body and blood of christ (a doctrine of the roman catholic church).

shepherdless

John Mann - The substance of the bread and wine are transformed. But the physical aspects (accidents) are the same.

Yes I was brought up as a Catholic as well, and was taught something similar. In simple terms, the bread and wine is said to have been transformed, but the transformation is undetectable. Using fancy words such as "transubstantiation" makes it sound sound more profound and gives the concept an air of credibility.

Question for John Mann: what is a difference between a "transformation" that is not physically observable, and a transformation that is said to only occur symbolically?

6

BREXIT - Lets provoke some comments please

by ZAPPA-ESQUE in

this is wunder-food for dubs [my dub family are already having apocalyptic orgasms about this ]" its 'bad" this is the "trigger" .... "you should come back now " .

so in reality what will it bring for you and i - the regular pawns of society ?

- end of western civilisation?

shepherdless

I suspect that after all the hype has died down, Brexit will have as much impact on "western civilization" as the Y2K bug did 16 years ago. (ie, virtually none.)

45

Printing presses, bye... bye...

by sp74bb in

jw
friends

bye... bye.... no more new printing presses for jw.org... the growth is so tremendous (irony...).. all printing work in europe will be arrange in the next month only in selters (germany), but no renovation or upgrading in printing presses is expected... it will be a full outsourcing :).

a worldly company axel s******* will be used.

this company is known to be printing bild newspaper... the interesting part of it is the logistics will be as well outsourced.

shepherdless

Extraordinary!

However, I am slightly disappointed. This is a sound commercial decision. Not only will a commercial printer probably be cheaper and more efficient, it will mean that they won't have a need for lots of bethelites, with associated costs of housing them, they won't have a need for expensive depreciating machinery etc.

25

Why a drop of over 3,700 publishers in the Democratic Republic of Congo?

by freddo in

jw
friends

looking at the figures for 2014 to 2015 the numbers have dropped from 180,343 to 176,585.. any idea why?.

shepherdless

Hi dropoffyourkeelee,

I think there is more to it, than that. Here is your table, with the number of baptised added as an extra column:

2010 151,842 10,711

2011 161,298 6.2% 11,593

2012 163,349 1.3% 10,668

2013 174,687 6.9% 19,501

2014 180,343 3.2% 11,052

2015 176,585 -2.1% 10,274

Over the same period, population increased by 13% but publisher numbers increased by 16%.

If the figures are to be believed, what they seem to show is that over the past few years, they are very good at baptizing people, but poor at retaining them. Last year, baptisms were a little down and retention was even worse. If the figures were fudged, they were probably fudged every year.

My bet is that it is a retention issue.

Also, for logistical and geographical reasons, I don't think a significant number could have gone across a border, to (for example) Angola. It is a very big country in both area and population. May be a few, but not 10% or more.

123

Message from Designer Stubble to the former JWR members

by Designer Stubble in

jw
friends

message from designer stubble to the former jwr members.

first of all i am glad to see that many of you have found your way to this great forum, facilitated by simon.

i am sure that after the dust of the jwr shutdown has settled, you will find this to be a good new home.. i would like to apologize for the sudden closure of jwr.

shepherdless

Was there quality stuff on there like there is in the archives here from Leolaia, AlanF and so on that it would be a shame to lose?

Just going from memory:

There were some videos on cults and how they behave, which I haven't seen here.
There were merged threads which acted like libraries on discrete issues (which I suspect gave the administrators grief in trying to maintain).
There were things like the "Steven Lett Appreciation Thread" which I think was mostly Fugue's creation, and was very funny.
There was a thread titled "Religious or Political Memes" which had been added to over time (years) and was hilarious.
There were a lot of particular threads (like libraries) for lurkers who had doubts or were emotionally traumatized.

I am sure others can add to, or correct, this list.

123

Message from Designer Stubble to the former JWR members

by Designer Stubble in

jw
friends

message from designer stubble to the former jwr members.

first of all i am glad to see that many of you have found your way to this great forum, facilitated by simon.

i am sure that after the dust of the jwr shutdown has settled, you will find this to be a good new home.. i would like to apologize for the sudden closure of jwr.

shepherdless

I cannot believe the schoolyard slapping that is going on now. It sure isn't making us X JWR's looking any good.

I was thinking the ex JWR's are very quickly adapting to the culture of this site. In my limited experience, people have always been less afraid to debate a point here.

By the way, I am so glad so many people have made it here from JWR. Even though I didn't post a lot there, I read it a lot and I feel like I know many of you. There are still a number of regulars that haven't made it here, thus far.

I am hoping someone can recover some of those meme's from JWR. They were brilliant.

36

Warwick, Queensland, Australia: Elders covered up rape of young girl

by wifibandit in

http://www.warwickdailynews.com.au/news/church-elders-covered-rape-young-girl/3047470/.

and archived forever via the wayback machine.

.

shepherdless

Smiddy - Is it not a criminal offence to know about a crime and not report it to the police / Law /authorities ?

Yes it is, or was, a criminal offence. In English common law it is called "misprison of felony". Here is a wikipedia link explaining it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision_of_felony

The link says the offence has been abolished in NSW, "and other Australian States and Territories". However, I am pretty sure that it survives in at least one major Australian State.

The offence itself is only a misdemeanor. At a guess, the reason we haven't heard of any prosecutions may be that there are statute of limitations issues, or that misdemeanor convictions don't often get reported in the newspapers.

123

Message from Designer Stubble to the former JWR members

by Designer Stubble in

jw
friends

message from designer stubble to the former jwr members.

first of all i am glad to see that many of you have found your way to this great forum, facilitated by simon.

i am sure that after the dust of the jwr shutdown has settled, you will find this to be a good new home.. i would like to apologize for the sudden closure of jwr.

shepherdless

OneGen - One of the first things I thought when I got wind of the plug being pulled:
"Oh shit! Fugue's posts!"

I thought exactly the same thing!

36

Warwick, Queensland, Australia: Elders covered up rape of young girl

by wifibandit in

http://www.warwickdailynews.com.au/news/church-elders-covered-rape-young-girl/3047470/.

and archived forever via the wayback machine.

.

shepherdless

I just want to address one point raised by jwundubbed, simon and flipper.

The article read in part:

In sentencing Harvey, Mr Andrews told him he had taken into consideration the fact he had already been punished by the church and through the breakdown of his marriage.

I am no expert on this, but my understanding is that an Australian Judge pronouncing a sentence will explicitly list all matters justifying a reduction in sentence, as part of the process. The reason to do this is to block the defendant appealing and seeking a lower sentence. I actually saw that happen in a fraud case, a long time ago. The Judge didn't mention a specific matter, and defendant got a reduced sentence on appeal for that reason only.

So when the Judge says he took those matters into consideration, it does not mean that they made any significant difference to the outcome. He is just stitching up one avenue of appeal.

To be clear, I am not defending the sentence given; I just wanted to clarify that point.