Posts by shepherdless

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

shepherdless

Fisherman, the "brief" would be the written legal argument by WTBTS why the original Court decision on document disclosure is wrong.

I haven't been following this case closely, but I find it very strange that WTBTS hasn't filed a brief. From memory there could be a lot of money at stake in this case because there were a large number of victims in the relevant congregation. If WTBTS doesn't file a brief, WTBTS would have no argument to not pay the accumulating $4000 per day. Perhaps WTBTS is trying to string it out as long as possible, and hope to settle.

25

It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL in

i know there have been many many posts on here over the years on the deity of jesus.. i am submitting this one because i am feeling a little confused.. the thing is, i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i know this.

so when i am going through my bible reading (to all you haters, yes i still do it) i see so many scriptures that just fly in the face of everything the jws teach about jesus.. i begin to wonder if indeed i am diseased in the mind ,as they will try to paint me, because it seems so plain to me.. i never even gave it a though growing up as to if jesus and god were equal.

i just didn't.. now when i read scriptures like philippians 9.... 9 for this very reason, god exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that jesus christ is lord+ to the glory of god the father.. .

shepherdless

Thanks sbf

I think Acts 2:22 should be read in the context of Peter giving a speech evangelizing to Jews. He doesn't start off by saying Jesus was more than a man, but by the end of the speech (Acts 2:34-36) he definitely is. Also, John 13:16 means something different to me in context.

I have some further counterarguments, but I can at least see the argument, now.

(I am still an atheist; just trying to understand the logic.)

35

February 26, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS Re: Witnessing in Public Places

by wifibandit in

february 26, 2017 to all bodies of elders re: witnessing in public places.

and.

february 25, 2017 to all congregations re: magnetic boards and posters for public witnessing.

shepherdless

Further to Outlaw's point, the Witnessing in Public Places letter says:

Any application to use a mobile cart or to set up a table or kiosk to display literature must be filled out in the name of an individual publisher, not in the name of the congregation, any corporation used by the organization, or “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” If a small administrative fee is needed in order to acquire space in a public area, it is to be paid by the individual publisher, not the congregation. Publishers should carefully review any such applications to see what responsibility they are taking upon themselves with respect to liability and possible proof of insurance coverage. Publishers who apply to distribute literature at these areas are doing so on their own initiative as part of their personal ministry.

The bolding is mine, to emphasis that WTBTS is putting all legal liability on the individual.
However, the letter goes on:

After consulting with the other elders, the Congregation Service Committee will make the final decision as to specific locations for public witnessing.
...
Locations selected for public witnessing must be within the congregation’s territory boundaries.
...
The service overseer or someone else designated by the body of elders should determine what may be legally required, if anything, in the way of permissions, permits, and insurance coverage.
...
The Congregation Service Committee will determine what equipment (including posters) will be used and where it will be stored. Only artwork approved by the branch office should be displayed.
...
The [public witnessing] equipment will remain the property of the congregation. Care should be taken to request only equipment that will be put to good use by publishers who have been trained in its use and that can be financially supported by the congregation. The congregation may be informed that the cost of the public witnessing equipment will be covered by their contributions to the worldwide work.

...
Determining Who May Participate: The Congregation Service Committee will select qualified publishers to participate in this feature of the ministry. Those selected should be... [blah blah blah]
...
If it is possible and practical, the service overseer or someone designated by the body of elders should organize a midweek and weekend schedule for each selected location.
...
It is usually best for two or more persons to be assigned to work together.

There is more. I can't be bothered cutting and pasting it. Surely, given the very prescriptive requirements and the fact that individual JW's use Watchtower logos and intellectual property, this letter is evidence that WTBTS is in complete control. The legal ramifications could be interesting.

25

It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL in

i know there have been many many posts on here over the years on the deity of jesus.. i am submitting this one because i am feeling a little confused.. the thing is, i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i know this.

so when i am going through my bible reading (to all you haters, yes i still do it) i see so many scriptures that just fly in the face of everything the jws teach about jesus.. i begin to wonder if indeed i am diseased in the mind ,as they will try to paint me, because it seems so plain to me.. i never even gave it a though growing up as to if jesus and god were equal.

i just didn't.. now when i read scriptures like philippians 9.... 9 for this very reason, god exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that jesus christ is lord+ to the glory of god the father.. .

shepherdless

Thanks NikL for raising this.

As someone who has never been a JW, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I can't see how anyone reading the bible on its own could come to the conclusion that Jesus is merely an agent or representative of Jehovah. Yet JW's seem so certain and confident on the issue.

9

money

by pepperheart in

now they are not printing between 40 and 60 million magazines a month what do people think they are doing with the money?.

shepherdless

On an earlier thread, I argued that halving the number of pages printed doesn't halve the cost.

I note from the financial statements of WTBTS Britain that the line item "producing and distributing Bible literature" dropped from £13,811,638 in 2014 to £11,181,391 in 2015. I imagine the corresponding figure from USA is probably of the order of 10 times that.

The above savings amount to about 6% of overall expenditure in the WTBTS Britain accounts.

36

Anyone know what this sculpture is of the "torture stake?"

by charity7 in

hey guys!

i'm new on this site and am a non jw here married to a jw.

my husband's family are active members and they daily post articles on facebook from jw.org which i know is meant for me to see and read.

shepherdless

Well resolved, scratchme.

It appears Marsyas was a legendary Greek who was strung up and whipped to death. Looks like another pathetic JW deception effort to support Watchtower nonsense, can be dismissed.

36

Anyone know what this sculpture is of the "torture stake?"

by charity7 in

hey guys!

i'm new on this site and am a non jw here married to a jw.

my husband's family are active members and they daily post articles on facebook from jw.org which i know is meant for me to see and read.

shepherdless

Hi charity7

I am also a non-JW married to a JW.

I don't recognize that sculpture. It is either Greek or Roman, with that Corinthian column to the right.

My short answer to the whole cross/torture stake issue is to point out that JW is the only Christian religion where you are required to believe the wooden implement was a particular shape.

The long answer is set out in detail in the following old thread:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/92381/facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-torture-stake

53

Best statement a householder made to get you to leave them alone.

by Esse quam videri in

knocked on a door on a saturday morning.

a window opened on the floor above me.

a grizzled old man stuck his head out and said, " we're all heathens here!

shepherdless

My wife returned from door knocking and told me a householder claimed they were Wiccans and practiced witchcraft. The householder apparently said something along the lines that it probably wasn't compatible with my wife's beliefs.

Sounds like it had the desired effect. My wife agreed and moved on to bother other households.

- - - - -

When I was a kid a couple of (I think) Mormons knocked on our door. At almost the same time, by coincidence, my uncle arrived. He summed up the situation and pretended to be a rival evangelist, stating lots of ridiculous benefits if I join his religion, not theirs.

After a bit one of the Mormons said something like, "perhaps we will return when there is a bit more maturity being shown", and they left. They didn't return, as far as I know.

3

Italy: "I, repentant Jehovah's Witness" before the Office of the Prosecutor against abuses

by sp74bb in

links: .

http://www.lagazzettadelmezzogiorno.it/news/home/858825/io-testimone-di-geova-pentito-esposto-in-procura-contro-gli-abusi.html.

https://abusostj.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/yo-testigo-de-jehova-arrepentido-ante-la-fiscalia-contra-los-abusos/.

shepherdless

Hi JunkYardDog,

i wouldn't equate a lack of comments with a lack of interest. I often read OP's and comments and think "excellent", without adding a comment of my own.

Also, when something is country-specific, it is harder for others to add a meaningful comment. But I wouldn't take that to mean a lack of interest or support.

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

shepherdless

So it looks like Thomas Jefferson was subpoenaed as a hostile witness for the plaintiff. Interesting that he was trying to argue elders were NOT clergy. Perhaps he knew something about the law in Philadelphia regarding the reporting requirements of clergy; and it differs from what a certain armchair lawyer has recently been claiming on these pages.

If the account written by John Redwood is even half-true, the jury must have thought Jefferson was deceitful scum. No wonder Watchtower settled.