Posts by shepherdless

43

2520-607 = 1913

by schnell in

jw
friends

i love math, i love calendars, and somehow, this always gets me.. 2520 - 607 = 1913. not 1914.. 2520 - 606 = 1914. from what i understand, russell realized this.

he had previously used 606 bc, of course, but then he switched it to 607 bc.

i know there was something about no zero year, so it actually should be less one, correct?.

shepherdless

I thought I would set it out for lurkers, but more for my own understanding.

Quite simply, there was no zero A.D. The year after 1 B.C., is 1 A.D. Add 2520 years to 607 B.C. and you get 1914 A.D.

There are so many other issues with this calculation, however. www.jwfacts.com does a good job covering them. Issues include:

1. Two types of year in the one calculation

As mentioned above, Russell used a 360 day year to convert "seven times" in Daniel 4:16 to 2520. (ie "seven times" = 7 x 360 = 2520 days) Then when applying Ezekiel 4:6 (day for a year) he in effect relied on a Gregorian claendar year (365.25 day year) to get from 606 BC to 1914 AD.

2. Whoops! no zero AD

That was fixed by simply moving the date of the fall of Jerusalem back one year, to 607 BC.

3. Whoops! Babylon fell in 539 BC

This is SBF's point above. 539 BC doesn't work with Watchtower theology. If Jerusalem was destroyed 70 years beforehand, then 607 BC becomes 609 BC, and 1914 AD becomes 1912 AD. Solution: Fudge it. Make up some stuff to add a couple of years; ie say it would have taken a couple of years for the release to have happened and/or Jews to return. And just ignore that the bible explicitly says the 70 years ended with the fall of Babylon (see Jerimiah 25:11-12) not when a release or return occurs.

4. Whoops! Bible says Jerusalem destroyed 22 years after 70 years commenced

Jerimiah 25:11 says a large group of nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. Jerimiah 27:1-6 makes it clear that this period had already commenced by the first year of the reign of Jehoiakim. Jehoiakim reigned for 11 years (2 Kings 23:36). The next king was Jehoiachin, who only reigned 3 months. Zedekiah was the third king and reigned for 11 years (see 2 Kings 24:18), before Jerusalem destroyed.

The problem for Watchtower is that this means the bible is in complete agreement with secular history; ie Jerusalem fell in 587 BC. (The Jews also believe that Jerusalem fell in 587 BC, but what would they know about the Hebrew Scriptures.)

Watchtower's solution: ignore what the bible says; never mention those passages; just make broad statements saying the bible with Watchtower (which is an outrageous lie).

23

The goal in all this 1918/1919 change?

by careful in

as some have recently posted here, there does seem to be a shift going on in their self-interpretation(s) of what happened in 1918 and 1919. if we can look past all the details that emphasize the poor thinking and poor wording (or contradictions/just plain craziness/insignificance) of their message, something bigger seems to be afoot.

they appear to be attempting to redefine the meanings for some "prophetic" scriptures in light of themselves.

1. they are trying to somehow fill the void they have themselves created from their rejecting freddie franz's (ff) type–anti-type postulations.

shepherdless

In answer to the OP's question, my guess is that they are gradually demoting Rutherford, making it easier to move past some of his crackpot ideas.

i suspect also that this is part of a process where 1914 and 1918/1919 will gradually be downplayed and airbrushed out of their history. It would have to be done very slowly, as even the most brainwashed JW would struggle if the changes are not introduced incrementally.

33

The Triune Polytheism; the 'Trinity'

by the-Question in

the most ridiculous of all dogmas anywhere in the universe is the very foundation of churchianity.....thus, all their other claims are just blah, blah!.

.

shepherdless

David Jay: I can say one thing about the Trinity: the Jehovah's Witnesses don't teach it right.

I have to agree with that.

Watchtower's approach is (a) concoct a ridiculous version of the trinity; (b) claim the Catholics believe that version; and (c) criticize the Catholics for believing that.

It seems to me that like it or not, reading and believing the bible on its own, leads to a belief in the trinity, just not the JW Strawman version.

Another point which struck me when I saw Floddin's infamous bread vinegar and mud video on JW Broadcasting is that Watchtower's view on the third arm of the trinity is identical to, or perhaps very slightly more broader (more trinitarian) than Catholic dogma.

20

Death and Judgement Day

by Tirisilex in

i'm having a hard time with this.

what does the bible say what happens when you die?

when jesus was on the cross he said to the man that when he dies he will be with jesus in heaven.

shepherdless

@ John_Mann

I am no theologian (in fact I am an atheist), but it seems to me, from my own reading that the "last judgement" you refer to, presumably the one in Revelations 6:10-17 seems to only apply to those living at the time.

If you die beforehand, you are judged as described in 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 and go to heaven. Catholics and (I think Orthodox and some Protestants) believe an intermediate state of "Purgatory", but I can't find a sensible biblical justification for that view.

In short, my (amateur) interpretation is that you get judged once, not twice.

70

Pseudo history in Watchtower today 😂

by Gorbatchov in

jw
friends

gorby went to the kh for family reasons today.. and landed right away middle in a pseudo history watchtower article.

just that aspect of the jw belief he is so sensative about.. so 1918 and 1919 are changed with one mark of a pencil.

the argument of change was in the past the argument of the doctrine.

shepherdless

For some reason, I can not find a link to the Watchtower article. Can anyone point me to it?

Edit: I think this is it:

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2016203

20

Death and Judgement Day

by Tirisilex in

i'm having a hard time with this.

what does the bible say what happens when you die?

when jesus was on the cross he said to the man that when he dies he will be with jesus in heaven.

shepherdless

What does the Bible say what happens when you die?

The answer that mainstream Christians would point you to is probably 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 (I think that there are other passages as well.)

Essentially, according to 2 Corinthians 5:6-10, the moment you die, your spirit/soul goes to the "Lord" and you jet judged on the spot. (No waiting until Judgement Day, for those that have died beforehand.)

Personally, I think 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 is pretty clear and unambiguous. It contradicts JW theology, but there is nothing unusual in finding contradictions between the bible and JW theology.

When Jesus was on the Cross he said to the man that when he Dies he will be with Jesus in Heaven.

The exact wording from Luke 23:43 according to NWT: 'And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise"'. That comma is a Watchtower add in. "Truly I tell you" is one of Jesus' favorite phrases, and appears a number of times in each of the 4 gospels. In my view, it is obvious that what Jesus actually said in that passage is "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise". This would also be consistent with mainstream Christian theology, but contradict JW theology.

48

Dose Wt really have that much cash.

by joe134cd in

i realize that wt has got a wind fall of cash through various means.

so my question is in the greater scheme of things is it really that much.

for example let's say with all their real estate and cash on hand they are worth about $20 billion dollars.

shepherdless

Are you sure translation isn't a significant cost?

In short, no, I am not sure (and not what I said, btw). The primary reason is, I don't know how Watchtower goes about it. If it was done in a lean manner, I would imagine that there would be 2 people assigned to each language; perhaps 3 for a major language, and 1 for a language that is really just a variation of a more common language. So for 100 languages, you might have 200 people working on them, and I wonder if there would be enough translation work to keep the 200 fully occupied.

However, Watchtower probably has some inefficient bureaucratic process where 1000's of people are involved. There must be someone else reading this who knows far more about it.

My original point was that printing less literature doesn't actually save Watchtower much money. That less pages means less translation work is a good point. I wonder, however, whether Watchtower has just kept the same translation teams, but they have less work to do, now, limiting the savings. Dropping some languages must result in some savings.

This is a side issue, btw, and I freely admit I have no expertise or inside knowledge about the labor cost of translation work.

48

Dose Wt really have that much cash.

by joe134cd in

i realize that wt has got a wind fall of cash through various means.

so my question is in the greater scheme of things is it really that much.

for example let's say with all their real estate and cash on hand they are worth about $20 billion dollars.

shepherdless

In response to DoC, yes I am not familiar with how healthcare works in USA. Just a question: does Medicare cover those elderly who need assistance in their home? Does that cover those who have to go into aged care or nursing homes?

sbf: translation is another thing I wonder (not knowing anything more about how bethel works than what I read on these pages) that is overstaffed? My personal experience is that if I have to get something translated for where I work, it is not that expensive, and even a 10 page complicated document is back within 24 hours. Obviously the Borg cant do that, but I still suspect the Borg is saving peanuts in this regard, with shorter and fewer publications.

I don't think any of us really know what is going on in WT headquarters, but the symptoms are of a business with significant cashflow concerns. The biggest puzzle at the moment, is why?

48

Dose Wt really have that much cash.

by joe134cd in

i realize that wt has got a wind fall of cash through various means.

so my question is in the greater scheme of things is it really that much.

for example let's say with all their real estate and cash on hand they are worth about $20 billion dollars.

shepherdless

My 2 cents worth:

Firstly, I broadly agree with SBF. The most likely explanation for Watchtower's behavior is that they have significant cash-flow issues.

Secondly, on other threads (which I can't currently locate) darkspilver has given good explanations of why even very cheap labor costs Watchtower a lot of money, and of why donations to Watchtower would be decreasing.

Prior to 1990, Watchtower had huge income from selling its publications door to door; generating great wealth for Russell and Rutherford so that they could live in luxury with their respective mistresses, build and live in Beth Sarim, buy those Cadillacs, go on expensive boat cruises, etc. According to one source, Watchtower was generating around $2 million per week in the mid 1980's from these door to door sales. Now it doesn't have any of that income. It just has donations from an increasingly old and poor (due to a lack of academic qualifications) rank and file.

Darkspilver highlighted costs of feeding, clothing and accommodating 30,000 bethelites. It costs more than a lot of people would think. These people were once essential to the main income earner; the publishing business. Now they are just a drain on the borg. Worse for the Borg, they seem to have a lot of retired senior Bethelites to support. Just for example, see the following discussion on Fishkill:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/289472/watchtower-buys-apt-complex-fishkill-ny

There are apparently 250 retired bethelites there alone. The annual cost of medical care for this lot, alone, must be in the millions.

Thirdly, Watchtower may well $20 billion in assets (probably more) when you count the value of all the Kingdom Halls. However, as most accountants could tell you, most businesses that go broke, do so because of a lack of liquidity, not a deficiency in assets. Sure, they can sell Kingdom Halls, but they can only sell a few at a time, and only in a way that limits the loss of membership.

Another minor point to add. Printing less literature doesn't actually save much money if you have your own expensive printing presses already. In the early days, when printing involved a lot of manual labor, it made perfect business sense for Rutherford and others to take advantage of the deluded slave labor available. I have no doubt that if Rutherford was running the Borg today, he would throw out all the printing presses and bethelites relating to that, and outsource that part of the operation, or print nothing. I suspect that the operation and maintenance of expensive underutilized printing presses, these days, is just another drain on the Borg.

Overall, I think things will only get more interesting. I suspect they are already burning through the money raised from the Brooklyn sales at a pretty quick rate.

23

Moscow City Court JW Restriction Verdict Today - 16-Jan-2017

by Da.Furious in

on jw.org this is the first paragraph on the 12 january news on russia:.

on january 16, 2017, jehovah’s witnesses in russia will again seek to counter the decade-long tightening of restrictions on their religious freedom.

they will ask the moscow city court to rule that a warning against their national headquarters be rescinded as unlawful and unfounded.

shepherdless

If Russian gov. succeeds in shutting down the WT and the other churches that compete with ROC, the move will have an extremely powerful negative impact on Russia and eventually on ROC; the rest of the modern world is looking and may correspondigly act upon Russia accordingly.

Are they shutting down "other churches" as well? I thought it was just Scientology and Watchtower.

Most of the "rest of the modern world" knows very little about JW's. They just see JW's as annoying wierdos who knock on doors at inconvenient times. Those who care about principles of religious freedom tend to be from the liberal left, which doesn't have as much influence at the moment, especially since the recent USA election.

With a new gov. pending in America that favors trade with Russia...

The new Govt may favor better relations, not trade. (Russia has nothing to sell but oil and military equipment.) Another reason that there may be little fallout.

if WT wins in that Court if it has to go that far ( and WT can't loose )...

Long story short: It is very hard to predict what the European Court of Human Rights might do.

Overall, I don't think anyone in the West will be that interested. I doubt the issue will get much media coverage.