Posts by shepherdless

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

shepherdless

scholar, where do you get 537BC? The bible says (eg Jer 25:12) very clearly that when the 70 years end, Jehovah “will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error”. That is 539BC at the latest, based on the portion of secular history that Watchtower chooses to accept.

Watchtower adds a fudge and says well it probably would’ve taken another 2 years for the Jews to walk back to Jerusalem, but that is irrelevant. The bible is clear about the end of the 70 years, and the date is 539BC, irrespective of how long it takes to walk back.

Check it yourself!

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

shepherdless

scholar, so you still can’t dare name the sources Watchtower relies upon. Perhaps you know they show directly that Nebuchadnezzar came to power in 605BC. Perhaps you just can’t bear to let your mind reflect on the consequences.

I will add one further point. The sources (that Watchtower relies upon) also say Babylon fell to the Persians in 539BC. Applying Jeremiah 25:12 gives you 539 + 70 = 609BC. Absolutely nothing gets you to 607BC, whatever bits of information you chose to include or ignore.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

shepherdless

scholar:

You know full well what are sources secular for establishing 539 BCE for the Fall of babylon as a pivotal date for this well-acknowledged by scholars.

Which are the exact same sources that say Nebuchadnezzar came to the throne in 605BC, the battle of Carchemish was fought in 605BC and the siege of Jerusalem in which King Jehoiakim died and King Jeconicah was deported to Babylon occurred in 597BC. The EXACT SAME sources!

Why can’t you state those sources that Watchtower relies upon? Too embarrassing for your position?

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

shepherdless

That is useful, Doug. When first reading up on this, I never bothered to go through the details of what type of “year“ is being referred to in each biblical passage and what the effect is. A lot of work to decide between 586 and 587. It was enough for me to see it was pretty clear that Watchtower chronology was hopelessly wrong, and CT Russell should have picked that up right at the start, because (for example) when writing “The Time is at Hand”, he refers to Ptolemys Canon.

Amongst the excellent and thoroughly researched articles I have seen (eg Gentile Times Reconsidered), there is one point I have not seen highlighted, as follows.

J-dubs like to say something like, “Well secular history might lead to 587BC, but the bible says 607BC.” Actually, secular history makes no mention whatsoever of the destruction of Jerusalem. There is, for example, a Babylonian tablet recording the siege of Jerusalem in 597 BC (recorded in both the Bible and Babylonian Chronicle), but the relevant Babylonian tablet for events of 587BC has never been found. We only presume the destruction of Jerusalem occurred because the Bible says so.

So my answer to “Well secular history might lead to 587BC, but the bible says 607BC”, is that there is no secular history, and the only date you can get from a literal reading of the bible is 587BC (or possibly 586BC).

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

shepherdless

I have to disagree, eyeuse2badub.

Ptolemys Canon (a list of eclipses going back to about 700BC) which gives the date and year of each eclipse by reference to the relevant King and the the number of years that King has been on his throne, has proven to be incredibly reliable.

These days we can calculate the exact dates of solar and lunar eclipses 1000s of years into the past and 1000s of years into the future. There is a NASA website which gives the data.

While Ptolemys Canon doesn’t say the exact date a king came to power (only the year) the data has proven 100% accurate each time there has been other info to check it with (eg those Babylonian tablets Watchtower was so desperate to discredit a few years ago).

For what it is worth, Ptolemys Canon records Nebuchadnezzar as coming to power in about 605BC, which would mean that (assuming the Bible is factually correct and accurate) the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in about 587 or 586BC.

16

From ABC News - Australia

by no-zombie in

this morning, this article appeared on our national online news channel; the abc.. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-10/jehovahs-witness-abuse-exposed/11561776.

no-zombie.

shepherdless

Yes, right on the front page of the website. My wife is in damage control this morning; sending me jw.borg links to Watchtower’s child abuse articles of a few months ago.

17

The serpent in the Garden can’t be secretly Satan

by Doug Mason in

we know that the serpent in the garden can’t be secretly satan, because the first time satan is mentioned by name is in a story chronologically after this one, and in that, he is said to be walking.

remember that the serpent was cursed to crawl on his belly all the rest of his days, but in the book of job, satan is still walking around and chatting with god as if they’d never had a falling out.

this is when god had to ask satan where he’s been, because his infallible omniscience obviously didn’t know.. so if he had to ask that of satan, who is later described as the lord of lies, then why would god believe him?

shepherdless

I remember seeing a documentary ages ago, that made exactly the same point.

49

Steven Unthank and his work.

by WHATSGOINGON in

hi everyone, .

i have been trying really hard to find the court case transcript where steven unthank was in court in australia and one of the wt lawyers or a wt spokesperson said the faithful and discreet slave does not exist.. i hope that this is correct i remember reading about this a long while back and would love to get evidence of this.. i found steven on facebook and messaged him about 6 months ago and he didn't respond, he probably wants to let all this go, and i don't blame him for that.. any suggestions would be very much appreciated.. thanks wgo..

shepherdless

Smiddy, could it have been a VCAT hearing using the Morwell Magistrates Court as a venue? It looks like he brought both a criminal complaint and Human Rights case.

In any event, if the criminal case was dismissed, I doubt there would be any publicly available record.

49

Steven Unthank and his work.

by WHATSGOINGON in

hi everyone, .

i have been trying really hard to find the court case transcript where steven unthank was in court in australia and one of the wt lawyers or a wt spokesperson said the faithful and discreet slave does not exist.. i hope that this is correct i remember reading about this a long while back and would love to get evidence of this.. i found steven on facebook and messaged him about 6 months ago and he didn't respond, he probably wants to let all this go, and i don't blame him for that.. any suggestions would be very much appreciated.. thanks wgo..

shepherdless

I didn’t listen to the whole podcast, but I think he says the relevant statements were made at a hearing of the Victorian Human Rights Commission, not the Latrobe Magistrates Court.

I believe such cases are heard in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal. A quick check, and I notice that there is a case called:

Unthank v Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia ((Human Rights) [2013] VCAT 1810 (23 October 2013)

My guess is that is the one.

Also, I doubt you will get any judgement from the Vic Magistrates Court naming Unthank as a party, as the summons was a criminal complaint, which would be listed as “R v Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses”, or something like that. He was only an “informant” not a party in that.

34

Seeking advice

by Mizalisa in

jw
friends

i'm not a jw, nor was i raised jw.

for the past three years i have been involved with a man who was raised jw, who at first told me he no longer believed as they did, but who, it has become clear over time, has not told his family or religious community the truth.

he has strung me along for years, never introduced me to anyone in his life.

shepherdless

Commiserations, Mizalisa, but a very wise move, all the same.

I am a never-JW myself. I married someone who was completely out at the time. After kids came along, she got herself baptised.

You have dodged a bullet.