Posts by Corney

The story is still not over. The five Halls complex has been sold for either £3.5 million or £4.5 million to a Shia Muslim group which is a part of tiny (less than 150,000 members worldwide) Khoja Shia Ithna-Asheri community. It will be re-developed into a multipurpose complex.

And now, the remaining part of the property, namely 5 residential dwellings, is put for sale:

https://www.each.co.uk/f/124602/p/200916123356.pdf

https://www.acorngroup.co.uk/commercial/property-sales/leisure-institution-investment-other-for-sale-in-5-pioneer-place-croydon-surrey/50189

"Unconditional offers in excess of £1,575,000 are invited."

"Potential also appears to exist to create a large meeting hall / place of [false] worship."

Background: the place was purchased in 1987, and for decades it has been "the main centre for Jehovah's Witnesses in the Croydon area." In 1990s and 2000s, the organization was planning to build a residential care home for up to 39 persons there but those plans have eventually been abandoned.

42

Elders accused of playing rape tape to victim, 15; case goes to Utah Sup. Court

by Corney in

a woman is suing a local congregation ("kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses, roy, utah, an unincorporated association"), individual elders and watchtower ny after, she claims, a judicial committee forced her to listen an audio recording of her own rape.

the trial court summarized the facts as alleged by the plaintiff as follows:.

at the time of the judicial committee, plaintiff was fifteen years old.

Corney

The complete and official recording of the hearing has become available: https://youtu.be/W5SXuoOR_bE

BluesBrother, you'll need a US IP to access the Utah Supreme Court site. I had to use a VPN too.

11

"She could have just walked out."

by Lost in the fog in

can you really imagine that a young teenager in a room full of stern grown-ups is going to say "i've had enough of this and i am walking out."?

i really hope it will go to trial.

utah high court weighs case of woman who says church made her listen to audio of her rape as a teenager.

Corney

Well, her mother and stepfather were also present, but it doesn't change a lot.

10

Senior Judge to Revisit Case-Law on Authorizing Medical Treatment Against Wishes of Mature Minor

by Corney in

jw
friends

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/ewhc/fam/2020/3003.html.

nearly two weeks ago, sir james munby, a privy council member, formerly a law commission chairman, high court's family division president, and a lord justice of appeal, issued a short emergency order in a blood transfusion case closely resembling mcewan's the children act.. here are some excerpts:.

2. the case involves the deeply troubling question of whether a blood transfusion should be administered to a young woman who is almost, not quite, 16, against her profound religious beliefs.

Corney

Daily Mail article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8935567/amp/Judge-rules-Jehovahs-Witness-15-blood-transfusion-save-life.html

10

Senior Judge to Revisit Case-Law on Authorizing Medical Treatment Against Wishes of Mature Minor

by Corney in

jw
friends

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/ewhc/fam/2020/3003.html.

nearly two weeks ago, sir james munby, a privy council member, formerly a law commission chairman, high court's family division president, and a lord justice of appeal, issued a short emergency order in a blood transfusion case closely resembling mcewan's the children act.. here are some excerpts:.

2. the case involves the deeply troubling question of whether a blood transfusion should be administered to a young woman who is almost, not quite, 16, against her profound religious beliefs.

Corney

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2020/3003.html

Nearly two weeks ago, Sir James Munby, a Privy Council member, formerly a Law Commission Chairman, High Court's Family Division President, and a Lord Justice of Appeal, issued a short emergency order in a blood transfusion case closely resembling McEwan's The Children Act.

Here are some excerpts:

2. The case involves the deeply troubling question of whether a blood transfusion should be administered to a young woman who is almost, not quite, 16, against her profound religious beliefs. X is a Jehovah's Witness. She has explained to me, in very powerful and moving words, the basis of her belief and the fact that, recently, she was baptized in accordance with the teachings and the beliefs of her church.
3. These cases always involve enormous difficulty because there is an inevitable tension, at least on the law as it appears to be, between the duty of the court and the heartfelt wishes of the young person who, as in X's case, has what for shorthand I will call 'Gillick competence'. X is, if she will allow me to say so, mature and wise beyond her years ...
8. Mr [Shane] Brady's argument, which is powerful and demands much fuller response than I can give it today, is that to impose this form of treatment on X is to impinge impermissibly upon her autonomy as, I emphasise, a Gillick competent child of almost 16. He submits that the law has moved on, not merely in consequence of the Human Rights Act 1998, but in more general developments, so that the position which had seemingly been reached by the Court of Appeal ... in the early 1990s no longer reflects the law as it is. Those are powerful arguments which deserve full analysis and proper consideration. Unhappily, we do not have time for that today ...
10. It seems to me that I have, for the purposes of today, to approach this matter on the basis of the law as it currently appears to be. The law, put very shortly and simply, is that the court pays great respect to, and takes very seriously indeed, the expressed wishes and feelings of a Gillick competent child and, in particular, the religious views and the religious faith held by a Gillick competent child and her family ...
12. However ... in the final analysis, there may be situations, particularly where serious risk to health or life itself is concerned, where the duty of the court, although having regard to the views of a Gillick competent child, is to decline to give effect to them.
13. The overriding obligation of the court is to act in the best interests of X ... it may be appropriate for the court to decide, with regret, but nonetheless firmly, not to give effect to the strongly held views and the strongly held religious beliefs ...
14. Mr Brady, in an enormously helpful and detailed skeleton argument for which I thank him, has put together arguments suggesting that this view of the law is in need of urgent re-analysis and review, partly in the light of the Human Rights Act 1998, partly in the light of more general recent legal developments, and partly in the light of the very important decision of the Supreme Court of Canada to which he powerfully drew my attention: AC v Manitoba ...
15. In those circumstances, it seems to me that the answer is that I have to authorise the giving of this blood transfusion ... In saying that, and in coming to this conclusion, I emphasise to X, who, as I am saying this, is watching me and listening over the Teams link, that I have very much in mind and have paid very careful attention to everything she has said. I appreciate in particular that, if this order is made, she will, again, have the same reactions as she described in very powerful and moving language she had on the two previous occasions when she had a transfusion. I do not, in any way, minimise the significance of that to her. I do not in any way minimise the profound significance to her of the fact I am overriding her strongly held religious beliefs. However, it does seem to me, in the light of the evidence I have heard, that were I not to take that course, I would be running a very real risk indeed, and an impermissible risk, of really serious harm to, not merely her future health and welfare but, potentially, even to life itself.
18. ... It is a matter of profound concern to me that, for whatever reason, this case has come back before the court, having previously been before the court in May ... in a tremendous rush and in circumstances approaching medical crisis ... [I]t has had the profoundly adverse consequence, the profoundly troubling consequence, that the court has not been able to deal with it in the way in which, ideally, the court would wish to deal with it.
19. It would be nothing short of intolerable if I were simply to make the order I have made and left the matter to await the next potential crisis ... It seems to me imperative that the court, sooner rather than later, and before we have the next crisis, is able to give proper attention to Mr Brady's very important submissions so that the next time, if there is a next time and the case comes back to court, there will be a clear legal framework available for the resolution of the next crisis. I would like the parties to consider how best we could deal with that.
20. There is also, although on one view, this is a matter for the next occasion, the question of whether the court should make, as it were, an order covering similar eventualities over the next two years until X reaches the age of 18. That is a matter which needs to be dealt with urgently and as part of this urgent hearing which I have in mind. However, it does seem to me something which is going to require careful argument because ... I have little doubt the court has power to make such an order, I will require considerable persuasion that it is proper for the court to make such an order in this kind of case.
21. It does seem to me that the proper way forward to avoid this unfortunate scramble to justice, because that is all we have been able to achieve today, is to make sure that these important issues that Mr Brady very properly wants to raise, can be dealt with in early course at a hearing where there has been adequate time for preparation, adequate time for argument and adequate time for judicial reflection.

42

Elders accused of playing rape tape to victim, 15; case goes to Utah Sup. Court

by Corney in

a woman is suing a local congregation ("kingdom hall of jehovah’s witnesses, roy, utah, an unincorporated association"), individual elders and watchtower ny after, she claims, a judicial committee forced her to listen an audio recording of her own rape.

the trial court summarized the facts as alleged by the plaintiff as follows:.

at the time of the judicial committee, plaintiff was fifteen years old.

Corney

The hearing has been held on Monday, as previously announced.

The argument recording (credit to Mark O'Donnell): https://youtu.be/dAu4SDd0_nY

Covered by an LDS-affiliated (correct me if I'm wrong on this) media outlet: http://deseret.com/utah/2020/11/9/21557200/utah-supreme-court-case-woman-says-church-made-her-listen-to-audio-of-her-rape-jehovahs-witnesses

I think the case won't be decided by the Utah Supreme Court until at least March, and whatever the outcome, the battle over First Amendment issues won't be over. I'm not sure on some procedural rules, but apparently we can expect there will be either a SCOTUS petition or a new motion to dismiss on grounds not considered by appellate courts, like the federal Free Exercise Clause or the Utah Constitution.

Some thoughts:

First, I can't help but to think that people without proper legal background are unable, in most cases, to comment meaningfully - not just expressing one's outrage or excitement, or twisting facts to express or support one's hostility towards something, or oversimplifying issues in question - on law and lawsuits. The inability of many commenters on Reddit, Youtube and other sites to distinguish between facts and allegations and to understand Justice Lee's therapy analogy are good examples.

Secondly, I would welcome a narrow and cautious judgment for the plaintiff. This lawsuit deserves to be tried but I'm not sure on IIED claims in general. The tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress is unique, amorphous and controversial. In contrast to battery, trespass and other torts, IIED isn't clearly defined and requires a jury to determine whether certain conduct is "outrageous," which in the current age of hyper-sensitivity, victimhood complex and rising anti-religious bigotry may result in gross violations of religious freedom. This case is complex not because evil Mormon judges want to make religion immune from scrutiny and liability - it's complex because courts needs to draw a line and to establish a viable and clear legal standard.

11

I don't believe there are 8 million JWS

by Hotpepper in

jw
friends

with all the closing of halls.

and all the csa cases.

and all the jws not only slipping out the back door.

Corney

Yes Hotpepper, I have a thought:

You are too deep in your WarwickMenBad echo chamber. It's not a good thing.

As to the talking points you've repeated, neither of them supports your claim.

I also have a link for you: https://ronaldlawson.net/2020/05/07/reassessing-the-size-of-mormons-adventists-and-witnesses-using-census-data-to-test-the-reliability-of-membership-data-and-accounting-for-the-disparate-patterns-found/

19

Two kingdom halls up for sale in our area

by Still Totally ADD in

jw
friends

driving by a kh yesterday we saw a for sale sign in front of the building.

it's on a beautiful piece of property off a main road outside the city limits.

the building can be no more than 10 years old and is very beautiful.

Corney

Two Kingdom Halls have been recently sold in Erie County, PA:

627 Worth St., Corry - on October 2 to private individuals for $90,000

617 (621) West 2nd St., Erie - on November 5 to West Erie Presbyterian Church in America for $110,000

6

EU top court rules on JW blood transfusion case

by Corney in

the court of justice of the european union (cjeu) yesterday delivered the judgment (press release) on a request of the supreme court of latvia on whether domestic authorities are obliged to reimburse costs of cross-border medical treatment when the patient's decision to perform it in another european country was based on religious, not medical, grounds.

the opinion of advocate general (summarized here) is helpful in understanding the case.. the son of the applicant in the main proceedings had to have open heart surgery.

that operation was available in the latter’s member state of affiliation, latvia, but could not be carried out without a blood transfusion.

Corney

Diogenesister:

Agree. One thing is what Watchtower must do (e.g., to reform the blood teaching - at least, to create an exception for life-threatening situations).

Another thing is what the state must do (to ensure, to a reasonable extent, that patients receive treatement compatible with their beliefs, that they are properly informed about risks and consequences of their refusal, perhaps to protect patients from undue influence etc.).

Phizzy:

I don't think they have reasons to be afraid of lawsuits. Even a total doctrinal U-turn would add nothing to the legal basis for potential litigation. Well, it's possible to argue that it would somehow angry and provoke many people to sue - but the number of non-Witnesses and ex-Witnesses whose loved ones died after refusing blood transfusion is already significant, so if there is no a lot of such lawsuits, it's not because of lack of aggrieved people.

Perhaps the JW leadership is just afraid of risks (confusion, disappointment, frustration etc. among members and other people) and lack of benefits (government and social pressure is unlikely to ease and can even grow) of such dramatic change which may also be hindered by structural features like the GB supermajority rule (assuming it still exists).