Posts by reigninhell

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

reigninhell

ianao, mommy ty, you got what I was on about. ianoa, nice posts as well!

Unfortunatly, the particular issue we are talking about is simply beyond the comprehension of good JW's. Notice how MDS fails to see that ... oh actually I can't be bothered putting it all again.

The frustrating thing about JW's are, they are taught to attack all the logical weakness in OTHER organisations, but seem absolutly incapable of percieving their OWN weaknesses. MDS, if you can't grasp the simple logic to what we are trying to get at, then I suggest going out, and reading some books on applied logic, philosophy, and theology. Oh and while youre at it why not read some books on astrophysics, quantum mechanics, and chaos theory. You''l probably understand that point a little better, although by then you'll have also realised the rediculousness of the WT doctrine, and the extent that you've been lied to. Oh yeah, an understanding of how the spacetime continuum function might help as well, so go out here and do some real learning.

"He could demand COMPLIANCE, TOTAL COMPLIANCE, by everyone, immediately. ...No, free will in this case."

Isn't that what armagedon is all about? Is the concept of duress simply beyond you? And aren't you listening, we're saying that according to the Bible, God DID intend it to come out like this. That. Is. What. We. Are. Trying. To. Say.

Out of interest MDS what part DO you play in the JW's? You use a very similar argument as an Elder used when I asked this question many years ago.

As all ways,

Reign In Hell.

62

Child Molestation

by Friend in

following is a slightly improved version of something i posted onto various web site forums a few months ago.

i hope it helps those working so hard on this subject.

what is revealed about the societys motivations regarding reporting (or not) of child abuse to secular authorities?

reigninhell

Friend, you've got the right attitude, trying to change an obvious wrong.

But the only thing that will happen is that you'll be labeled a divisive influence, slandered, and possibly disfellowshipped (Elders aren't above fabricating evidence Friend, if you say something they don't like. Wanna guess how I was Disfellowshiped??).

Many others have tried to reform the WT system in exactly this area, and using the same method. ALL have failed.

If you truly believe in Jehovah as he is portrayed in WT literature, then you must also recognise that He has appointed the Governing Body and helps in their decision making processess. Therefore the WT policies concerning child abuse are Jehovahs policies. So WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING THEM??

If you truly don't believe that the WT is Jehovahs spirit annointed congregation THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL A MEMBER?? (Although I gotta say I would love to get reinstated, and worm my way into their infrastructure, like a cancerous cell, a true Wolf in Sheeps clothing...... <cue Evil Laughter>).

Choose a side Friend. Either leave the fold, and take on the WT headon via expose' articles, bad publicity, court room action if you can some hard evidence, gnomes on the kingdom hall carpark (hehe nice article Uncle Chuckie...), whatever. Or sit down, shut up, and be a good little drone.

Reign In Hell

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

reigninhell

Recap, Jehovah knew what Judas would chose to do in advance so He used that action as a "mark" to help identify the Messiah.

If Jehovah knew for a fact that that would occur, then placing Judas in that situation, he set him up. It still isn't even slightly a moral thing to do, and still violated Judas free will. You wouldn't put an alchoholic in charge of a bottle shop now would you? As I said before, it's obviously more than simply knowing that Judas would sell out, there were all sorts of specific prophecied factors, that couldn't have been chance. Jehovah is "He Who Causes To Become" remember? Thats still all a violation of free will.

Lets think about that scripture where Jehovah tells David, that before David was even concieved Jehovah knew all about him. That is a fairly clear indication of Jehovah having predestined yet another event.

So if Jehovah is capable of knowing everything in advance, then how did Satan get a chance to rebel? Why did Jehovah deliberatly create one third of the Angels, and Humanity in full knowledge that they would rebel? An Ego-trip? Boredom? In any case, it still shows that mankind had no free will.

MDS, yes in fact I do view the Biblical Jehovah as a demon. While not a Gnostic myself, do a search for Gnostic Christianity, it explains what I mean. Thats giving some serious benefit of the doubt as to his existence. Or when I'm in a Buddhist/Occultist mood I view them as the same entity. Of course since I don't view God in Christian terms it's a moot point really. The particular philosphy I follow dictates that all Truths are ultimatly false. So I deliberately change my perseptions to gain more understanding of that which can't be understood. Hence, it all depends on my mood.

I really don't see how Christians can fail to comprehend this. You either have free will or you don't. Since Jehovah created Everything, that includes time. Since He created time, he has already decided everything. Since He has already decided everything, Jehovah is the only one who is responsible for the sins of humanity. Logically, Jehovah declaring everthing in creation "good" makes all our sins "good". Therefore why would we be punished for doing exactly what we are created to do?!?

Reign In Hell

49

Who is an atheist here, just wondering?

by spectromize in

jw
friends

i would like to know who is an atheist here and why you like to take part in discussions on this board?.

thanks for your replies.

reigninhell

Solus_Sophist, that is the exact definition of a Satanist! Good for you...

I think the Drug MDS is on, is faith. It's an addictive drug, but hey, like Heroin, you need never think again! Send me $100 and I'll sell you some. ;-)

I'm sure not an Atheist. Atheism is a religion, takes as much blind faith to follow as the JW's. I'm an Ex-JW, Ex-Pioneer, Ex-Microphone-passer. Don't even ask about my beliefs, it's way too complicated.

I'm here to keep my mind flexible. And to see exactly how stupid I used to be. Pretty damn guliable by the looks of it. I can't figure out why I never saw all the cracks, years before I did. And arguing against all the things I used to argue for, has got to help complete the debrainwashing process.

Reign In Hell

18

Good and Evil

by reigninhell in

jw
friends

good and evil.

two basic polarities.

would someone care to please define them, and the difference between them?.

reigninhell

Expatbrit, you'd be right there. Maybe I've read one too many conspiricy theories, but doesn't it occur to anyone else that its a little strange that Jehovah chose a person on the same level as Nimrod to change Christs basic message (forget the details, the Gospels have been altered too many times to be accurate...) from one of love, acceptance, individuality and very few rules , to your average hate group?

All hail Paulianity!!

Jelly, Good and Evil are purely subjective terms. A cat is "good" when it slaughters a mouse. An Islam thinks sending children across battlefields is "good". Is the woman who kills a rapist good? What about an abusive husband who she has had death threats from? The line blurs swiftly.

As an example of the immaturity of Black and White thinking, look at the two extremes Life and Death (both have a distinct bearing on our personal views of Good and Evil).

Life exists via Death. All that lives dies. Take Death away, and Life doesn't work. The fiction of animals ceaseing to kill each other in the "Paradise" is an example of this.

Lets consider just one species, flies. Lets say one fly can produce a thousand larvae (it's way higher, but it'll do for starters) per day.
Currently only a few survive, the rest are eaten by birds and other predators. Remove that factor, and lets see what happens:

Day 1 - 1000,000,000,000 flies after Armageddon remain.

Day 2 - 1000,000,000,000,000 flies

Day 3 - 1000,000,000,000,000,000 flies.

This continues. By day four, from just this one species alone, the entire planet would be clogged, and all vegetation eaten. The "Evil" of death is what makes life "Good".

"Evil" also gives rise to "Good" via giving an opportunity for people to act in a "Good" fashion. Without starving children, homeless, you name it, people wouldn't be able to advance themselves positivly. And if there were total peace, someone would get greedy, and try and take charge. "Good" giving birth to "Evil".

Psychologicaly, every person is an equal measure Good and Evil. We choose to do good out of fear generally, although a few do "Good" for its own sake, as a nice way to live.

Very few Christian religions can comprehend this truth. Do some research into ancient Judaiical philosopy, the old rabbis taught this same thing (although giving slightly more weight to "Good" of course." Christian has lost all that.

And Logical, I could write myself a letter of good standing. Doesn't mean it's true. Look at God's actions throughout the Bible, He's a moral idiot, hypocritical and full of double standards.

God didn't create Man in his image, Man created God in his image.

"Father is the words on the lips of every child for God,
Since our Fathers failed, what does that tell you about God?"

Reign In Hell

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

reigninhell

MDS, sorry but that hasn't answered anything.

If humanity has free will, then shouldn't God respect that? I have free will when I'm getting mugged "Hand over the wallet or I'll shoot you!". That ain't considered free will. Thats threats and bullying, a no win situation.

"Let me give you a little inside information about God.
God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it.
He gives man INSTINCTS! He gives you this extraordinary
gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusment,
his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition.
It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch,
but don't taste! Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha! And when you're
jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's
laughin' His sick, f#%^$%' ass off. He's a tight-ass! He's a
sadist! He's an absentee landlord. Worship THAT? NEVER!"

a quote that sums up Jehovahs "Do as I say or I'll kill you for exercising your right to choose" mentality. A shame if you've never listened to the JW's because you were too busy or had a bad impression from all the brainwashing and child abuse stories.

Oh thats right, Jehovah apparently has already decided who he wants, and opens their hearts accordingly, leading them to the "Truth" (Now that term is classic Neurolinguistic Programming if ever I heard it).
Thats what the WT and the Bible has said, time and time again. Again, thats predetermination NOT free will.

And what about the whole prophecy bit? Not to mention the whole cursed unto the seventh generation clause of the Hebrew Scriptures. A real shame if you happen to have a great-great-great-great-grandfather than broke some law. You have already had your fate decided. You may have a little free will, but God will make sure that all you try fails, and everyone hates you. Predetermined, NOT free will.

It still looks like this is the Bible in a few sentances:

"You have little or no free will. I've already decided everything, you're doomed. What little free will you do have is not applicable as I'll kill you if you don't do exactly what I say. And you better hope that I have nothing special in store for you. If you do I'll curse your name forever, just for carrying out my will."

Using one set of scriptures fails when they contradict another set.

Let the reader use discernment.

Reign In Hell

18

Good and Evil

by reigninhell in

jw
friends

good and evil.

two basic polarities.

would someone care to please define them, and the difference between them?.

reigninhell

Very well put.....

No difference really, both exist in our own minds, one always has and always will give rise to the other. We see God as what our own predjudices find acceptable, and the Devil, as our own petty fears and insecurities.

Paul was an uptight, insecure little upstart wasn't he? I almost pity Jesus, having his religion undermined like that.....

Reign In Hell

18

Good and Evil

by reigninhell in

jw
friends

good and evil.

two basic polarities.

would someone care to please define them, and the difference between them?.

reigninhell

Good and Evil. Two basic polarities. Would someone care to please define them, and the difference between them?

Reign In Hell

A tribute to all who have fallen......

by reigninhell in

jw
friends

to sharon, dead from an overdose, after her elder/stepfather abused her, and it was all hushed up...... to denise, hung herself after same....... to courtney, mike, and a hundred others, suicide from causes unknown, pioneers all...... .

to the one third of jw's that suffer from mental illness..... to the victimised children, and their lost innocence....... to the ostracised family members, with no one to turn to..... to those that were disfellowshiped on trumped up evidence to quieten those that ask the wrong questions...... to homosexuals, unable to help their genetic and hormonal condition, forced to live a lie...... to the empty eyes, shallow lives and bitterness that hide behind the masks of every jehovahs witness i have ever met...... to those betrayed by friends, they thought they could trust...... to those who waited for the end of a generation, only to be told they had been misinformed....... to all those teenagers whose pent up sexual energy had insured they'd marry the instant they'd turn 18 to someone completely wrong for them...... to a god that answers no prayers, provides no signs, confuses and baffles, and promises faithfully that you too can have the beautiful experience of helping clean up the rotting, crow pecked, fly blown corpses of 99.9% of earths population, pregnant woman, babies, orphans, and your next door neighbour that you say hello to every morning...... to my own shattered illusions...... still, you know why shepards have sheep?

they're fattening them up for the slaughter.. long live the wolves.. reign in hell

reigninhell

To Sharon, dead from an Overdose, after her Elder/stepfather abused her, and it was all hushed up.....

To Denise, hung herself after same......

To Courtney, Mike, and a hundred others, Suicide from causes unknown, pioneers all......

To the One Third of JW's that suffer from mental illness....

To the victimised children, and their lost innocence......

To the ostracised family members, with no one to turn to....

To those that were disfellowshiped on trumped up evidence to quieten those that ask the wrong questions.....

To homosexuals, unable to help their genetic and hormonal condition, forced to live a lie.....

To the empty eyes, shallow lives and bitterness that hide behind the masks of every Jehovahs Witness I have ever met.....

To those betrayed by friends, they thought they could trust.....

To those who waited for the end of a generation, only to be told they had been misinformed......

To all those teenagers whose pent up sexual energy had insured they'd marry the instant they'd turn 18 to someone completely wrong for them.....

To a God that answers no prayers, provides no signs, confuses and baffles, and promises faithfully that you too can have the beautiful experience of helping clean up the rotting, crow pecked, fly blown corpses of 99.9% of Earths population, pregnant woman, babies, orphans, and your next door neighbour that you say hello to every morning.....

To my own shattered illusions.....

Still, you know why shepards have sheep? They're fattening them up for the slaughter.

Long Live The Wolves.

Reign In Hell

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

reigninhell

Hello,

One of the first questions I asked the Elders that REALLY irritated them. Excellent! Now, lets see if I can a straight answer from a JW (Does happen sometimes, usually as they hand in their disassociation letter).

Logical propositions:

1. Man has free will.

2. God has free will, and has already determined all events that occur to Man.

Those two statements are mutually exclusive. You CANNOT have both.

As an example of the contradiction thats occurs throughout the Bible, look at Judas.

According to WT literature, it was prophecied that one of the 12 apostles would betray Jesus, get the 30 pieces of silver, etc.

That means that, since Jehovah is "He who causes to become", Jehovah had made sure that one of the selected 12 would betray Jesus. If none of them had, it would have invalidated the entire prophecy.

It could be argued that Judas had the choice, as it could have been another of them. Sorry, but it still means that one of them was damned from word go. Everything in Judas life lead up to his kissing Christ on the cheek. And after all, Jesus selected him. If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, then Jesus effectively signed his death warrant for him, ie Judas Had No Choice. If Jesus didn't know then Judas heart was pure when he became an Apostle. Who, that is even remotely intelligent, and knew for for a fact that Jesus was the Son of God, would truly be stupid enough to betray him for the price of a night out on the town, without some form of Divine Intervention?

Since it was all predetermined, then Judas was not responsible for his actions, the only one responsible is God. Satan (the WT version anyway...) had nothing to do with it. If Satan did enter Judas' heart, then it was at God's bidding. So why is Judas accursed for something he wasn't responsible for?

You can carry this line of reasoning into any and all Bible prophecies.

Do some research, I actually think it was an obsure notation in the "Insight" book, that had the WT admit to total predeterminism, in contradiction with their own total Free Will policy.

Ahhhh, if only I still had my WT library, all the loopholes, lies, and contradictory statements you ever need to loose faith is right in there....

BJC, if you knew anything about the total interconnectedness of human society, then it becomes apparent that just choosing life or death can have a massive outcome on all humanity. Imagine if say Cain had "choosen life". Or Judah had stayed in Egypt. Or are you saying that some of us have free will, and others don't?

All lecturing, insults, and genuine discussion appreciated.

Reign In Hell