Legolas,
At this point all I can say is I don't have enough information to go on. Could be mind tricks, could be ghosts... who knows?
The thing about positing ghosts, though, is that there is no *Positive* theory of ghosts. Even Paranormal investigators will admit to this. There is only a *negative* theory. That is, you can never really prove a phenomenon was caused by ghosts. All you can do is exhaustively disprove every other potential cause until ghosts are the only explanation. Unfortunately this is almost impossible in practice. This is why, in my mind and most scientists minds, the ghost explanation is by far one of the least likely (followed closely by space aliens). :)
rem
Posts by rem
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113So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
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113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
>>>> high probability that I've already seen what anyone has to offer
>> Sounds like what someone knocking on doors offering magazines would say if the homeowner asked them to read some guideposts magazines.
Now you're just being ridiculous. Does the fact that I'm well read on the subject and own a whole library of books on it intimidate you? Why would you expect me to read something I've already read? I haven't turned anything down yet have I?
Yes this is a pet hobby of mine. Of course I've read tons of stuff on both sides. How about you?
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113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
First I need to know what type of floating you are talking about. There are several types. Is it the David Blaine type of floating? Monks floating? Floating in bed at night? What specifically have you seen floating with your own eyes, or are you relying on second/third-hand information?
Understanding the floating phenomenon requires more than a knowlege of the mechanics, but also of they psychology involved.
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113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Sagan explains the concept of "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" quite well in Demon Haunted World.
Basically what it comes down to is a claim is extraordinary if it requires the rewriting of many well tested scientific theories. For example, many paranormal claims require that forces do not deteriorate over distance. This goes against known physics and is an extraordinary claim. You could say this is educated adult common sense.
If I were to claim that I got a speeding ticket today, that would not be an extraordinary claim. If I claimed that I got a speeding ticket in my invisible stealth fighter, that would be extraordinary and would require some extraordinary evidence. Part of critical thinking is to be able to tune your baloney detection skills and better determine what is an ordinary claim and what is extraordinary. It does take some knowledge of science and logic (the ability to see logical fallacies) and such to determine with accuracy what is an extraordinary claim and what isn't.
For example, a child would have a different concept of what is extraordinary than would an adult (hopefully). The same is true when one learns more about science and critical thinking.
If a claim is not falsifiable, then it is not even worthy of discussion. This means that any claim worthy of discussion will have a naturalistic explanation because only those can be tested. For example, I can claim that I have an invisible elf living inside my big toe, but you cannot disprove this claim. Since the claim is not falsifiable, there is no reason to take it seriously. Anybody can make such claims without evidence and there is nothing that can be done to disprove them. Ultimately such claims do not end up teaching us anything useful about our universe. If it was useful, then it could be tested and falsified.
That is why you don't see the world changed by paranormal claims... there are no laws against psychics gambling, psychics are of no aid in finding missing people (above chance), etc. etc. whereas innumerable scientific advances have touched almost every facet of our lives, even down to this message board we are using today (notice we are not using ESP to communicate).
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Seeing that I've watched many of the same types of TV programming that has aided in convincing Legolas that ghost are real, there's probably not much I haven't seen from that side of the fence. Like I said before, I used to be a believer, so if there is something new to share, I'm more than happy to see it. Be warned, though, there is a high probability that I've already seen what anyone has to offer.
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Freedom,
I think the issue is that you are creating a false dilemma. It's not you saying you saw something and scientists saying you didn't. There are more possibilities, and that's what the scientific study of the paranormal has uncovered over the past century. I'm not going to spoil the surprise for you, so you'll just have to figure out what the other possibilities are on your own. :)
I was purposely caustic in my posts to illustrate a point. The point is that believers are extremely caustic towards skeptics and science in general and they don't even seem to realize it. Believers are often condescending to skeptics, claiming that they are closed minded when in fact this is completely untrue. We can only take so much! :)
LT,
Good thing I know you or I might have missed the satire. hehe You don't want to get us skeptics riled up, now do ya? Everyone knows we have underdeveloped senses of humor! lol
>> We have statistics on this? I'll grant you that there is weak anecdotal evidence for this
Silly rascal! Now I know you have at least learned that only extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the claim, such as the above, is not extraordinary, then I get to go off of WAGs (wild-ass-guesses). But in any case, I'm not positing an unfalsifiable claim, so it would be easy to disprove with a well done survey. Care to take it on? :-P
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Freedom,
I think the issue is that you are creating a false dilemma. It's not you saying you saw something and scientists saying you didn't. There are more possibilities, and that's what the scientific study of the paranormal has uncovered over the past century. I'm not going to spoil the surprise for you, so you'll just have to figure out what the other possibilities are on your own. :)
I was purposely caustic in my posts to illustrate a point. The point is that believers are extremely caustic towards skeptics and science in general and they don't even seem to realize it. Believers are often condescending to skeptics, claiming that they are closed minded when in fact this is completely untrue. We can only take so much! :)
LT,
Good thing I know you or I might have missed the satire. hehe You don't want to get us skeptics riled up, now do ya? Everyone knows we have underdeveloped senses of humor! lol
>> We have statistics on this? I'll grant you that there is weak anecdotal evidence for this
Silly rascal! Now I know you have at least learned that only extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the claim, such as the above, is not extraordinary, then I get to go off of WAGs (wild-ass-guesses). But in any case, I'm not positing an unfalsifiable claim, so it would be easy to disprove with a well done survey. Care to take it on? :-P
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Hmm... it's not allowing me to edit, so here goes:
Hey dude! :)
I don't think it's an extraordinary claim to say that most believers have not read even the most basic of scientific information on the subject. ;)
In fact, it would be extraordinary if the opposite was true seeing that the scientifc viewpoint doesn't get anywhere near equal time with whatever new-age topic sells advertisements on TV and such. So it's not entirely the believer's fault, but the information is available if just a little bit of effort is put forward.
Why should I not be annoyed when people make uninformed statements about science? We should all be encouraging education, not a condecending, anti-intellectual view of critical thinking.
How the hell are ya?
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
Hey dude! :)
I don't think it's an extraordinary claim to say that most believers have not read even the most basic of scientific information on the subject. ;)
How the hell are ya?
rem -
113
So how do you explain this....
by loosie ini didn't want to hi jack this thread.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/95312/1.ashx.
but i wanted to open this up for discussion.
since being raised a jw, everything unexplainable has been attributed to demons.
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rem
>> However, I know without a doubt what I saw and experienced for many years. When someone suggests that I didn't, yes I have a problem with that, because how the hell do they know?
That is the crux of it right there. You have not learned to doubt, therefore you will never increase your knowledge. When you learn more about human psychology and how the brain works, you will start to doubt.
>> You say do some research.....ok what do you suggest? Am I supposed to read something that tells me that what my family and I experienced didn't really happen?
There is so much information out there, but for the novice, I would recommend a couple of good books:
Demon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan
Why People Believe Weird Things, by Michael Shermer
From there you will find references to many more authors and research papers and you can narrow down your interests. Another great read was Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, by Hines. This one has a lot of references.
I'm sorry, but just going by your instinct and trusting yourself is the lazy approach. It's basically the same thing as JW's who don't want to do the research on how the Borg is corrupt. They are comfortable in their worldview.
That's not to say you are lazy in all other areas... just in this particular area, or perhaps research in general.
rem