hey all, .
so i recently posted for the first time and introduced myself.. i have been spending time reading various posts.
some informative, some not so much.. since i've been reading on here, i've read a lot from atheists.
DJS,
As usual, your vitriolic rant only proves the OP correct. You boast of being this wonderful tolerant and open minded person, yet with your senseless keyboard strokes you only contradict yourself. If you can't handle people discussing their belief systems in a forum designed to discuss belief systems, than perhaps it is you that should "knock yourself out".
Grow up man
so i hooked into meeting via phone this week to listen in and was shocked at the absurdities mentioned in the study article (2016 may watchtower: "go,..and make disciples of people of all the nations").
the answer is obvious—only jehovah’s witnesses.
the answer the missionary priest gave in no way proves that jws are the only ones "preaching the good news".
So I hooked into meeting via phone this week to listen in and was shocked at the absurdities mentioned in the study article (2016 May Watchtower: "Go,..and Make Disciples of People of All the Nations"). The article's purpose was to prove the JW religion true via their preaching work. Here are a few of the points the article made, followed by my counter-arguments:
Parr 1
..Is it presumptuous on our part to think that we are the ones who are doing this work?
-Yes, yes it is.
Parr 2
Many religious groups feel that they are preaching the Gospel, or good news. However, their efforts are often limited to personal testimonies, church services, or programs broadcast through the media—whether by means of television or on the Internet.
-"personal testimonies, church services, or programs broadcast". Umm, aren't those exactly the same methods JWs also use to preach?
Parr 3
Were Jesus’ disciples to be passive, waiting for people to come to them? Definitely not! After his resurrection, Jesus addressed hundreds of his disciples and told them: “Go, therefore, and make disciples
-Here they are insinuating the "Christendom" is sitting idle waiting for people to come to them. However, this very statement is contradicted by their earlier statement from paragraph 2 (cited above) in which they admit that most Christians do "preach" by means of personal testimony, church services and media broadcasting.
-Results speak for themselves. If "Christendom" has not preached actively throughout its history, how did it acquire the billions of members that profess to belong to it? Conversely, JWs only make up a tiny insignificant fraction of a fraction of the total of those that call themselves Christians, even after 100+ years of supposed 'real preaching'.
Parr 6
Jesus preached “the good news of the Kingdom,” and he expects his disciples to do the same. What group of people are preaching that message in “all the nations”? The answer is obvious—only Jehovah’s Witnesses. Even some opposers acknowledge this fact. For example, a missionary priest once told a Witness that he had lived in many different countries and that he had asked the Witnesses in each country what message they were preaching. What answer was he given? The priest said: “They were all so stupid that they gave the same answer: ‘The good news of the Kingdom.’” Far from being “stupid,” however, those Witnesses were speaking in unity, as true Christians should.
-"The answer is obvious .." No, it is not. Again, their own statement from paragraph 2 demonstrates that even JWs admit other Christians preach as well.
-"Even some opposers acknowledge this fact[...] For example, a missionary priest once [...] asked the Witnesses in each country what message they were preaching. What answer was he given? The priest said: “They were all so stupid that they gave the same answer: ‘The good news of the Kingdom."
.... Classic Red Herring here. The answer the missionary priest gave in no way proves that JWs are the only ones "preaching the good news".
Parr 7
The clergy of Christendom are not preaching God’s Kingdom. If they do speak about the Kingdom, many refer to it as a feeling or a condition in the heart of a Christian.
-So the "clergy of Christendom are not preaching god's kingdom", but, oh, wait, they do "speak about the Kingdom". Is there a difference?
-The great majority of Christendom preaches (or "talks" according to the WT) that the kingdom of heaven is a place where we go to when we die, not a symbolic condition of the heart.
Parr 7
Rather, they prefer to remember Jesus at Christmas and Easter.
..that's more times than JWs remember Jesus every year.
Parr 8
Despite this clear direction, most churches are sidetracked by collecting money or by making efforts to survive financially. They have to support a paid clergy, as well as a multitude of other employees. In many cases, the leaders of Christendom have amassed great wealth
-"..most churches are sidetracked by[...] making efforts to survive financially." Its funny they should mention this when JWs have recently dedicated monthly broadcasting episodes entirely to begging for increased contributions.
-Also, do not JWs also have to support a "clergy, as well as multitude of other employees"? How does the Governing body members, the thousands of bethelite workers, as well as the thousands of traveling overseers support themselves? Is it not through the "support"and monies provided by the rank and file members?
-"..Christendom have amassed great wealth". Umm, JW's are in the currently in the process of selling assets worth billions of USD.
Parr 10
What methods did Jesus and his disciples use to preach the good news? [...]The preaching work included searching for deserving ones from house to house
Perhaps. Though there is no evidence that this was their main method of preaching. Nor is there any evidence that they visited the same homes over and over and over again.
Parr 11
But rather than being “fishers of men,” Christendom’s clergy seem more concerned with merely keeping the “fish” they already have
-Funny they should mention this given this year's regional convention theme designed with the sole purpose of desperately "keeping the fish they already have".
Parr 12
The book Pillars of Faith—American Congregations and Their Partners states: “For Jehovah’s Witnesses, the missionary focus overwhelms all other concerns.” Referring to statements made by a Witness, the author continues: “When they encounter hunger, loneliness, and ill health, they try to help, . . . but they never forget that their primary task is delivering a spiritual message about the coming end of the world and the necessity for salvation.”
The WT here quotes a book that is quoting comments made by WT representatives. Wow.
and it is still ongoing ?.
obviously sparked off by the 2 afro american citizens gunned down by police officers these past few days.?.
when is this sort of violence going to end ?.
Common sense shows there are issues that need attention on BOTH sides of the equation. Sadly, the politically correct world we live in now prevents that from happening.
The cops that shot those two black guys messed up badly and they need to suffer the consequences of their terrible decision making that lead to the unnecessary loss of life. They will have their day with the law.
However, again, common sense will show that there is also a problem within the lower class minority culture, specially poor black culture, a problem of violence, disrespect, and lack of self control. This has nothing to do with race and much to do with culture. The one common factor in most of these police killings is that they were resisting arrest. Most of these black guys that have been killed are no saints.
Take Michael Brown for instance. This young man was portrayed by the media to be a "gentle giant", a young innocent kid that got viciously murdered by an evil white cop, shot in the back while he had his hands up. That was shown to be a load of bullshit. The guy had just robbed a store and was evidently trying fight and even kill the cop. Could the cop have handled it differently? Maybe tazzed him or shoot him in the legs? Perhaps. But Mr.Brown could have also acted differently. Had he demonstrated some respect for authority, he'd probably be alive right now. Sadly, most people now believe he was shot in the back while his hands were in the air.
The police community needs to get it's act together and train itself better to handle critical spur-of-the-moment situations. The black community needs to get its act together and realize there are significant problems within its culture of violence and disrespect for authority. There are problems in both sides. We can't fix the situation until we acknowledge these issues.
Killing cops is not the answer. At least not in Dallas. There have been some bad cases in Dallas, but the 2 that sparked it weren't here. They weren't to blame. Don't shoot any old cop just because some are bad. But I understand your frustration.
Do you realize what you are saying here jws? So killing cops might be the answer elsewhere out of Dallas?
You understand the frustration that these murderers have? Murderers are murderers, whether they are cops, blacks, whites, yellow, rich, poor or other. These guys have no justification and to sympathize with them is to become complicit with what's wrong in our society.
Look at Trayvon Martin. A kid playing with a toy gun.
I'm guessing you mean Tamir Rice.
preach the "urgent" life saving message in all seasons and circumstances says 2tim 4:2 right?.
oh except if it's cold, hot, windy, snowy, rainy or you have done an hour of walking etc... then just gather in a coffee shop and chat with witness friends.... so urgent indeed.....
Being from sunny south florida, I can tell you I hated preaching in the summer months. It was suffocating. So we would rush under the nearest tree shade, spend half hour chit chatting there until it was time to move to the next shade.
Looking back now, we probably could have visited all the houses in our small territories in about 20 mins, but we would always manage to somehow stretch it out to at least 2 hours.
...hope to enjoy everlasting life and witness the resurrection, things unseen by the world.
like the philosophers of paul’s day who called him an ignorant “chatterer,” most people today think that the hope we preach is sheer nonsense.
(acts 17:18) .
...hope to enjoy everlasting life and witness the resurrection, things unseen by the world. Like the philosophers of Paul’s day who called him an ignorant “chatterer,” most people today think that the hope we preach is sheer nonsense. (Acts 17:18)
"sheer nonsense".. lol.
i was asked to view the video “dear believer, why do you believe?” i said i would and i would publish my comments about it.
so here are my comments.
after my post, i hope other believers will post theirs comments about it.
There is no evidence at all that god exists.
..If by god you mean some vague notion of a disinterested higher power then I agree. We can no more prove that sort of god doesn't exist..
I think there's a bit of a contradiction here Cofty :) (I'm teasing you, please don't write me an entire article reply on the scientific method)
Anyways, my two cents..as an agnostic: live and let live. It goes for both sides. It does seem to me that a few voices here have become quite loud lately within some threads as to anything God related, and you know, that's quite sad to me.
Remember that our shared goal within this community is to help as many exJWs feel free enough to transition away from that cult as possible. The great majority of the ones wondering around here that are still "in" I'm sure still believe in God and the Bible (I know I did for quite sometime). I fear of the feeling of nonacceptance they might have from seeing the general vitriol displayed by a few voices here against anyone that still wants to make sense of spiritual matters. I'm not against putting up proof or evidence for or against evolution / religion, but I wish we would do so in a way that respects the dignity of everyone.
Please, I urge you all to remember this, lets talk to eachother as we would in person, with respect and dignity. We are all victims of a shared common pain.
it seems britain has voted to leave the eu in a move of total madness!
the markets are already in free fall and the moronic bigots who campaigned for this are celebrating the demise of our country .. i can't see how a 49-51% split can be democratic?
there is still the postal vote to come in, maybe there's hope in that?
I'm confused wasn't the UK a power for years before they joined the EU. What makes people now think that they will suddenly fall apart?
I ask myself the same thing.
jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
One of the things that made me more open to analyzing "apostate" views was realizing how many verses in the NWT were twisted to fit our doctrine, so thx again Perry.
If there is a hell, I'm pretty sure we'll find F. Franz in there.
jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
Excellent analysis Perry. Thank you for it.
warning of a long boring post ahead.
i feel like i need to vent my story out, as i feel quite helpless at the moment.. i'm 31 year old, married, father of toddler with another one on the way, due later this month.
i've been serving as elder for about 4 years now in a south florida congregation.
Hi friends,
So, as I mentioned in a reply above, i was successfully able to help my wife see the light. All of the advice I received here was invaluable and I'm greatly thankful for the warm embrace i received from all of you.
We have stopped going to all mtgs and do not preach at all either. As to the rest of my family, they are showing signs of pre-shunning us, and this is incredibly painful for us, but we are grateful that at least we are not completely cutoff. We intend to one day move to another town with the hopes of making it harder for elders to follow up on us, given that we can't wait to celebrate our first Christmas...😂
Timebandit:. Thx for the words my friend. I know elders have a bad rap around here and of course there are always a few bad apples, but many are genuinely just trying to do this really difficult task as best they can.
Thanks fire the words Edenone
