Posts by TheWonderofYou

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

Input to this topic : letter of the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH dated 1979

"7) In fidelity to the New Testament and Tradition, the Church believes in the happiness of the just who will one day be with Christ. She believes that there will be eternal punishment for the sinner, who will be deprived of the sight of God, and that this punishment will have a repercussion on the whole being of the sinner. She believes in the possibility of a purification for the elect before they see God, a purification altogether different from the punishment of the damned. This is what the Church means when speaking of Hell and Purgatory.

When dealing with man's situation after death, one must especially beware of arbitrary imaginative representations: excess of this kind is a major cause of the difficulties that Christian faith often encounters. Respect must however be given to the images employed in the Scriptures. Their profound meaning must be discerned, while avoiding the risk of over-attenuating them, since this often empties of substance the realities designated by the images

Neither Scripture nor theology provides sufficient light for a proper picture of life after death. Christians must firmly hold the two following essential points: on the one hand they must believe in the fundamental continuity, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit, between our present life in Christ and the future life (charity is the law of the Kingdom of God and our charity on earth will be the measure of our sharing in God's glory in heaven); on the other hand they must be clearly aware of the radical break between the present life and the future one, due to the fact that the economy of faith will be replaced by the economy of fullness of life: we shall be with Christ and "we shall see God" (cf. 1 Jn 3:2), and it is in these promises and marvellous mysteries that our hope essentially consists. Our imagination may be incapable of reaching these heights, but our heart does so instinctively and completely."

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19790517_escatologia_en.html

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

BTW designs, thanks for your interesting commenting, showing that Gods punishments would never be unbalanced.

:-)

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

But what about the apocalytic ideas. They are not part of the torah but are jewish? aren'nt they?

How important were these apocalyptic ideas or warnings about the fate of the condemned in the mind of a 1-st century Jew or christian?

Ideas of the apocalyptic doomsday and judgement and a phantastic future developped in the Jewish world (such as Isaiah's geena ) but they were not determining the thoughts continuing. From there originate the Doomsday phantasies, which emphazize a future individual judgement with the thought of fair vengeance.

The jewish community concentrated itself more on the important religious heritage, the festivals of Rosh ha Schana, which was interpreted as day of judgement and the Jom Kippur, seen as the day of Consiliation, which gave the people the possibilty for active repentence and consiliation between each other already in the actual life and not in an apocalytic future.

Rosh ha Schana, the day of jugdement, was celebrated on the first day of the year because of its importance to remembered everybody about the responsibilty towards God, especially to the demand and gift of conciliation. A “verdict” over the deeds of the last year was written and on Jom Kippur after the 10 days of expiation it was “sealed”.

Is this correct?

I think by means of these festivals the Jews knew well that Mercy and Love were indeed Gods character and The judgement day allegories are neverlesse
part of gods word but can only be interpreted on the basis of Gods mercy. Judgement and repentance was a daily work for a jew. Jesus and the Apostels were Jews of the 1 st c A.D. and they knew not only the Old Testament Text, but also each jewish interpretation of the scriputres and the jewish festivals. Over the centuries with the abruption of contact between Jews and Christians the Jewish Background and the mindset get forgotten by most people. The adjustment to come to a balanced few of the Scriptures was missed. Unbalanced interpretation appeared.

Talmud: Mercy should the way and aim of rightousness in the jew belief “Take the beam from between your eyes” (baba batra 15 b)

http://www.come-and-hear.com/bababathra/bababathra_15.html#PARTb

R. Huna contrasted [two parts of the same verse]. It is written, The Lord is righteous in all his

ways, and then it is written, and gracious in all his works.2 [How is this]?3 — At first righteous and

at the end gracious.4 R. Eleazar [similarly] contrasted two texts. It is written, Also unto thee, O Lord,

belongeth mercy, and then it is written, For thou renderest to every man according to his work.5

[How is this]? — At first, ‘Thou renderest to every man according to his work’, but at the end, ‘unto

thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Rosh_HaShanah.pdf

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

1635 AD. Friedrich von Spee, Güldenes Tugend Tagebuch, page 118
develops the thought that God could cancel the original sin by means of his love.

Friedrich is seen as central figure who argumented against the witch hunting and he expressed a
anti-perspective towards the official hell doctrine.

http://www.friedrich-spee.de/index.php?id=2

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

"Whether these notions should be understood solely allegorical or to what extent the symbols refer to the matter itself as well, is really hard to decide. Certainly it can be only explained by considering the total belief system” (translation by me, citation: Ratzinger, in Introduction to Christianity concering the ideas of a Christ on a judgment seat at the Parousia).

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

Is “torment”, “agony” - really extra biblical, extra-Jewish and pagan influence?

Can I paint over all bible passages where horrible words appear with my permanent with pure conscience? My children could feel unnecessary fear of those words.

My most hated are:

“ torment for all eternity” in the firelike (Rev. 20,10) though the words are merely part of an inspired allegory
“ inextinguisable fire” with which John the Baptist warned Herodes Antipas though it is not literal
“ agony in clacing fire” in the story Jesus told, tough the agony is not literal but Jesus only intended to warn.
“ everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” in the story about a king who selects the evil goats for slaughter.

By what other christian non pagan words I should actually replace these allegoric phrases which appear in the most popular and most read gospels and were told by Jesus himself?

Why did Jesus or the Apostel not explain that or propose a balanced view of the matter? They permanently used those unchristian words after all, Jesus spoke even of that that little lovely goats would receive the same “everlasting fire” that was prepared for the devil? Didn't they think that the Devil deserved literal conscious pain?

What did the jewish people really believe in the time of Jesus Christ? If Jesus used the agony in the hades in story, how much did the people really believe in an after life and a fair punishment. Why should Jesus tell such a story, why should he support a pagan fantasy or extra-biblical idea?

What did the people in the jewish-christian epoch acutally belief in?

63

Why did God/Jehovah/Jesus create Viruses and bacteria that can kill humans and animals?

by Jon Preston in

jw
friends

i know this topic has been spoken about but i havent seen an official thead about it.

so theists why did god create these and why does he co tinue to allow them?

are they from the talking snake, satan?.

TheWonderofYou

A possible answer: God gives the life the opportunity to develop itself into whatever direction it wants to develop,
Into the evil and bestial as well as into the spiritual and loving. "Selfdeveloped creation" and "Freedom-optimized" creatures
would be the tradmark than.

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

and yes too dear Vanderhofen, God does not punish - not eternal and not short!

1. it would be unlogical to read conscious pains or torments in many bible passages, torment itself is used as an image.

2. no burning people , no actual pertual pains, no literal flames, no literal court, no actual punishment , how wonderful,
nothing to be afraid of at all, because God does not punish or judge with the measures of quantitative means. !

3. Gehenna and other popular images of punishment were used by the apostels as vehicle for the teaching that
there is the shocking possibiltie to get lost, to make a total failure and to lose the eternal life.

4. How you would explain the differenc between

a) possibilty to get lost
b) punishment to death and annihilation?

The first is a possibilty the second gives the impression of a punishing God!

5. Thus i primarly think: We must not remain at merely saying "the images are merely meaning death and annihilation",
althought a very honourable work, but thus we yet more remain in the thought line of a punishing God,
perhaps we even encourage such a false understanding. But trough using "possiblily to get lost" like a sheep,
We could as responsible teachers demonstrate that God has a personal feeling for each single individuum,
is interested in our eternal welfare.

6. Thus i think secondly: is is insufficient to explain the biblical images simple as mean destruction, because destruction and annihilation itself or images of loosing Gods communion but we should show that God loves us to the maximal extent he can, what Jesus demonstrated and was witness of, that he does not want our failure, that his communion solely means real life, and that the church calls in demotic words "hell", (1st century "Fire")

7. But all teachers here, please do not remain in the thinking: "Which sentence could God mean here and there, is it an eternal or an single one?" because God doesn not punish anyone (not eternal and not short), this is the meaning of mercy. His mercy is without limit said Pope Francesco lately in the mass. And John Paul II said always "Be not afraid".

Sincerly yours, TWOY

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

and yes too dear Vanderhofen, God does not punish - not eternal and not short!

1. it would be unlogical to read conscious pains or torments in many bible passages, torment itself is used as an image.

2. no burning people , no actual pertual pains, no literal flames, no literal court, no actual punishment , how wonderful,
nothing to be afraid of at all, because God does not punish or judge with the measures of quantitative means. !

3. Gehenna and other popular images of punishment were used by the apostels as vehicle for the teaching that
there is the shocking possibiltie to get lost, to make a total failure and to lose the eternal life.

4. How you would explain the differenc between

a) possibilty to get lost
b) punishment to death and annihilation?

The first is a possibilty the second gives the impression of a punishing God!

5. Thus i primarly think: We must not remain at merely saying "the images are merely meaning death and annihilation",
althought a very honourable work, but thus we yet more remain in the thought line of a punishing God,
perhaps we even encourage such a false understanding. But trough using "possiblily to get lost" like a sheep,
We could as responsible teachers demonstrate that God has a personal feeling for each single individuum,
is interested in our eternal welfare.

6. Thus i think secondly: is is insufficient to explain the biblical images simple as mean destruction, because destruction and annihilation itself or images of loosing Gods communion but we should show that God loves us to the maximal extent he can, what Jesus demonstrated and was witness of, that he does not want our failure, that his communion solely means real life, and that the church calls in demotic words "hell", (1st century "Fire")

7. But all teachers here, please do not remain in the thinking: "Which sentence could God mean here and there, is it an eternal or an single one?" because God doesn not punish anyone (not eternal and not short), this is the meaning of mercy. His mercy is without limit said Pope Francesco lately in the mass. And John Paul II said always "Be not afraid".

Sincerly yours, TWOY

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

TheWonderofYou

Yes dear vanderhofen,

yes but perhaps the catolic church never official taught torment or conscious pain, whereas the priests spoke of it on the cancel. I dont know the middleage church or how it was 100 years ago.

Mat 25: although the eternal punishment is used, it could be merely a lingustic instrument to create a comparison between eternal punishment and eternal life, If Jesus really used the comparison himself and it was not a linguistic item, it is simple giving emphazise to the shocking reality, that
somehone or "a single sheep" could be lost somehow by the shepherd. Here he does not speak of gehenna, but the image of the symbolic place of punishemnt was certainly in the heads of thep people.

Mat 25 in general: i like the parable because it shows of what jesus speaks: he identifies himself with the needy people, a single act of mercy that I do to someone who needs me, could be watched by Jesus, i dont know when he will watch me or when i will meet him, perhpas after death and that single act could mean that I am not getting lost.

Greetings of TWOY