i have a question about the implications of the new light regarding the f&ds.
sorry if it sounds complicated, i'm not good at explaining things.. .
if the f&ds is now just the few brothers who get together to dispense the food at the proper time, and the f&ds will be appointed over all of christ's belongings, then does that mean they will be appointed above the rest of the 144,000 when they go to heaven?
To James Woods and Wha Happened re: the governing body alone has always been the dictator of policy and belief for JWs.
I was thinking along those lines, too, which means the new light is going to make their stated belief more in line with their actual practice.
Holly
i have a question about the implications of the new light regarding the f&ds.
sorry if it sounds complicated, i'm not good at explaining things.. .
if the f&ds is now just the few brothers who get together to dispense the food at the proper time, and the f&ds will be appointed over all of christ's belongings, then does that mean they will be appointed above the rest of the 144,000 when they go to heaven?
Hi ItsMyLife,
The WT Org doesn't appear to be abandoning the appointment of ALL the 144K over the Master's belongings, even though the scripture does designate that it is the faithful slave who is appointed over them.
The annual report says this: "Jesus will reward “the faithful and discreet slave” by resurrecting the individual members of that group to heavenly life and by giving them royal authority over all Christ’s belongings in heaven and on earth. This is the same reward promised to all faithful anointed Christians."
They might be taking a page from current marketing strategies of releasing a product to the public and then making updates, upgrades, and corrections per feedback from customers. There still doesn't seem to be a study article about the changes outlined at their annual meeting, which might give them the perogative of pleading temporary insanity and reverting back to their former teaching.
Holly
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
Splash, most of this is from the work of Crispus on another forum:
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. (Acts 2:41)
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:46-47)
But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand. (Acts 4:4)
Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord. (Acts 9:31)
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:20)
(Watchtower, September 1, 1951, pp. 516-517)Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom."
(Watchtower, March 15, 2001, p. 8 'Courageous Integrity Keepers Triumph Over Nazi Persecution,' bolding added)"At that time, Germany had one of the largest concentrations of anointed followers of Christ. In fact, of the 83,941 persons worldwide who partook of the Lord’s Evening Meal in 1933, nearly 30 percent lived in Germany.
Using 5,000 from the Bible would be conservative since many times it was only the men who were counted, not the women and children.
Adding up what we have so far: 5,000 + 40,000 + 83,941 = 128,941 by 1933.
This figure, though, doesn't include those who were martyred before the year 95. Nor does it include those who were the generations of the FDS the WT Org says passed the "truth" down to the next generation all the way to Russell. It also doesn't include any of Russell's followers who died before 1933. And it doesn't include the number of anointed after 1933. Though we can add in the number who partook at last year's (2011) Memorial: 11,824, bringing the total to 140,765.
Acts 4:4 it says "the number of men," so it may be the women and children weren't counted, which was a common practice in those days. (see Matthew 14:21; Mark 6:44)
Another notable quote, courtesy of Crispus:(Watchtower, April 15, 1963, p. 249)"It has been calculated that by the end of the second century 60,000 copies of the major part of the Christian Greek Scriptures could have been in circulation, even if only one in every fifty of those professing Christianity possessed a copy."
Holly
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
Thank you, Fernando, for the welcome and the good advice.
Holly
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
To Blondie: thank you for the 1972 article. Wha-Happened is right about it contradicting other articles, namely one from 1951 that praises all the hundreds of thousands of Christian martyrs and likens them to present day JWs being persecuted.
Here's a paragraph from that article in 1951:
[w51 9/1 p.516-519]Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.
That's over 850,000 right there. If the WT Org admits even an 8th (106,000)of them were true Christians, they're over their 144,000 number (include the 5,000 from the Bible and 39,000 from the 1938 memorial, and assume none of the 40,000 martyred in 95 A.D. were true Christians).
The article outlines ten persecutions beginning with Nero in 64 A.D. and ending with the one above by Diocletian. If none of those killed in those years were true Christians, why is the WT Org promoting itself on what false Christians did?
Evidently others noticed the numbers weren't adding up because there's a disclaimer in the QFR the next January to explain that the ones in the article are "professed Christians, not Christians in fact."
[w52 1/15 p.62]QuestionsFrom Readers: According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.
The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.
And none of it fits their now OLD teaching that each generation of the 'faithful slave' fed the next generation, all the way from the apostles to Russell.
I tried to discuss this with the JWs at BeliefNet, but it was dodgeball as usual.
Holly
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
Thank you, Cobalt. Neat smilies!
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
Blondie, in 1938 there were 39,225 partakers. So quite a few must have stopped partaking after the 1935 announcement by Rutherford that shoved the great crowd out of heaven and shut the door in their faces.
Still, they exhausted 144K a long time ago, if not in the first century, certainly by Diocletian's time in the 300's when the WT Org's own publications show over 800,000 Christians were martyred.
Using your figures, 54,000 would have been pared down quite a bit because there were some 40,000 Christians martyred in 95 A.D. by Domitian, and that doesn't include the estimated 5,000 that Nero did away with.
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
Howdy Ann!
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
I'm wondering where they're going to say Jesus went in 1919 after he appointed the slave to feed his domestics. JWs of course will be satisfied with anything they can even remotely call a 'reasonable' explanation.
And how was the governing body in the 1st century NOT the FDS?
so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.
if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.
also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.
This is my first post, so here goes.
They claim that Jehovah revealed who the great multitude [great crowd] were in a speech given by Rutherford at the assemby held May 30-June 3, 1935. It was actually aimed at the Jonadabs who had come to the assemby. They were the ones at the time with an 'earthly hope.' Everyone else was going to heaven.
He asked all those with an earthly hope to stand up. And when they had, he announced, "Behold! the great multitude!"
It's from their account in the 1975 yb, p.156-157:
WHO MAKE UP THE “GREAT MULTITUDE”?
That had been a burning question among Jehovah’s people for years. Long had they viewed the “great multitude” (“great crowd,” NW) as a secondary spiritual class who would be associated with the 144,000 anointed ones in heaven, like bridesmaids or “companions” of this Bride of Christ. (Ps. 45:14, 15; Rev. 7:4-15; 21:2, 9) In addition to this, as early as 1923 the “sheep” of Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats were identified as a present-day earthly class who would survive Armageddon into God’s promised new order. (Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 16:14, 16) The 1931 volume Vindication (Book One) identified the persons marked on the forehead for preservation (Ezek. chap. 9) as the “sheep” of Christ’s parable. In 1932 it was concluded that this present-day class of “sheep” had been prefigured by Jehu’s associate Jonadab. First in 1934 was it made clear that these “Jonadabs” with earthly hopes should “consecrate,” or enter a dedicated relationship with Jehovah, and be baptized. But the identity of the “great multitude” referred to in Revelation chapter 7 was still understood the same as previously held.
Uncertainties about the “great multitude” were removed when Brother Rutherford discussed that subject during the assembly of Jehovah’s witnesses on May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C. In that discourse it was shown Scripturally that the “great multitude” was synonymous with the “other sheep” of the time of the end. Webster L. Roe recalls that at a climactic moment J. F. Rutherford asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” According to Brother Roe, “over half of the audience stood,” and the speaker then said: “BEHOLD! THE GREAT MULTITUDE!” “There was at first a hush,” recalls Mildred H. Cobb, “then a gladsome cry and the cheering was loud and long.”
Soon the convention was over, but it had started something—a search. “With enthusiasm running high and renewed spirituality, we went back to our territories to search for these sheeplike people who were yet to be gathered,” says Sadie Carpenter.
After the 1935 convention, some who previously partook of the emblematic bread and wine at observances of the Lord’s Evening Meal ceased partaking. Why? Not due to unfaithfulness, but because they now realized that their hopes were earthly, not heavenly. And whereas the Society’s publications of former years had been designed primarily for Jesus’ anointed followers, from 1935 onward The Watchtower and other Christian literature provided spiritual food to benefit both the anointed class and their companions having earthly prospects.
