I'm in the process of waking up 2 new jdubs to TTATT. One is completely done with the organization but his wife is a believer and he doesn't want to lose her. The other person is going through a midlife crisis of sorts, but she can't seem to let go of "the friends". Im working on them but there is a LOT of turnover in my area. I would say that in my old congregation alone, almost all the young people (10) have left.
Posts by Emery
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101org is dying
by lambsbottom ini don't understand why so many ex jws and faders think that the jws will continue to grow and thrive as a religion.
i still attend a meeting once a week and you can smell the death of the religion creeping up when you hear the talks, read the study wts and hear the letters from the gb.
the way the organization has changed is a sign that it reached its peak (in "healthy" membership) long ago.
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80
My Experience and how I finally let myself see the truth
by OneEyedJoe infirst off - for those lurkers who feel guilty just for being on this site and reading this (even if you don't read any further, as it is your right to choose that course) i want you to know that you're not alone in what you're going through or in what you are feeling.
if you read on, i hope my experience may be of some small help to you.. this may be long, but i'll try to organize it in a way that doesn't make it painful to read.
to start, i feel it is most beneficial if i'm upfront and honest with my goals from posting this, which are (in order of the degree to which they motivated me):.
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Emery
That is a toughy. It sounds like she's more of a bible based believer, you're going to have to work with biblical interpretation here. The big A was an issue that I personally dealt with until someone pointed out to me that both Jesus and Paul believed they too were living in the "last days" and how eminent it was in their time.
The next time you two talk about Armageddon, you could say - "The scripture found at Proverbs 13:12 really bothers me when I think about Armageddon - ' Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.' It's been over 2,000 years yet we're still living in the last days? Do you think Jehovah intended for us to be waiting this long? Or is it possible that we're misapplying these scriptures?" Then show her how both Jesus and Paul felt the end was eminent in their day. You could follow that up with, "Were Paul and Jesus wrong or were they right considering what happened in 70 AD?" You could say, "Couldn't the last days been the destruction of the Jewish nation of Israel during the first century? Didn't the end of the jewish system end within a generation of Jesus warning his fellow apostles about it?"
This is more of a Preterist approach but it's one that I could not really argue against when I was waking up to TTATT. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying that this applies to the 1914 overlapping generation of Jehovah's Witnesses. IF you can start putting the book of Revelation into it's historical context for her, she may start losing that fear. Bart Ehrman has a really good lecture on interpreting the book of Revelation and how it matches up perfectly to the time it was written in. It's basically a traditional jewish apocalypse (there were many written during that time) wishing the destruction of Caesar Nero and the Roman Empire. It's NOT a blueprint for the end of the world. I'll try and find that link for ya.
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My Experience and how I finally let myself see the truth
by OneEyedJoe infirst off - for those lurkers who feel guilty just for being on this site and reading this (even if you don't read any further, as it is your right to choose that course) i want you to know that you're not alone in what you're going through or in what you are feeling.
if you read on, i hope my experience may be of some small help to you.. this may be long, but i'll try to organize it in a way that doesn't make it painful to read.
to start, i feel it is most beneficial if i'm upfront and honest with my goals from posting this, which are (in order of the degree to which they motivated me):.
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Emery
I think that's a great idea, but consider where she's at in her belief system. If she's more of a bible based believer -- where the word of god is her final authority, then use bible based arguments/questions where the bible clearly disagrees with WT doctrine. If she's more like you in that she's more open to evolution, then you should use that approach. Like you mentioned earlier, people are emotionally attached to the organization and no amount of facts will deter them from it until an emotional injustice occurs. Many of the people I've helped have in some way been burned by the organization in many respects, which I have always taken advantage of. Start off by asking your wife why she thinks it's the truth? What made her accept it? What she tells you will be your starting point for dismantling.
I know your approach may appear to be dishonest but, your motive is to wake them up to truth. Reminds me of a fitting quote from the movie 'V for Vendetta'
“Artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie. But because you believed it, you found something true about yourself.”
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Your final WTF? Moment!
by restrangled init was a long time coming for me.....when i read about the extened generations, after being raised on1914 being the be all end all, and millions would never die....that was the end.
i was part of the 1975 fiasco, the 6 month only truth book studies, suffered through a disifellowshipping and their version of a rewind.
i finally am free and hope others can eventually look in instead of inside looking out!
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Emery
I had 2 "WTF" moments. The CO just came to town and during his public talk, he mentioned Matthew 18:20 - " For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." and then he preceeded to say, "This scripture only applies to Judicial committees." WTF!?
And my final WTF moment I had was when I read 'The Finished Mystery', yes the wise spiritual food that Jesus personally thumbed through to grant the organization the greatest honor in all Christian history by appointing them as his Faithful and Discreet Slave. I would say, there were probably over a hundred separate "WTFs" moments during that read. I've never felt so embarassed to be a JW until after I read that book.
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My Experience and how I finally let myself see the truth
by OneEyedJoe infirst off - for those lurkers who feel guilty just for being on this site and reading this (even if you don't read any further, as it is your right to choose that course) i want you to know that you're not alone in what you're going through or in what you are feeling.
if you read on, i hope my experience may be of some small help to you.. this may be long, but i'll try to organize it in a way that doesn't make it painful to read.
to start, i feel it is most beneficial if i'm upfront and honest with my goals from posting this, which are (in order of the degree to which they motivated me):.
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Emery
Welcome OneEyedJoe! This was a beautifully written post -- I sure hope you stay awhile! I really enjoyed how you expressed yourself, I've felt all the same things you did but you expressed it a lot better than I ever could. It will take some time and the journey will get really obnoxious at times but knowing that you're mentally free will make things a lot easier going forward. My wife and officially faded over a year ago and we haven't looked back since. We only make a few appearences a year here and there at conventions to keep some family happy. They just see us as some spiritually weak young couple (28 and 21 yrs old). As far as tips on waking up loved ones...what helped me wake my wife up was asking her questions. I assumed the role of a student and made her the teacher. I never preached at her or talked down to her in our conversations. This will go A LONG WAY. This approach has actually helped me wake up several JW friends. Anways, I wish you nothing but the best and I look forward to reading more posts by you.
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Does WT use intellectual intimidation in publications?
by KateWild inwhen i first learned ttatt, i read loads all at once and tried to absorb everything.
then i slowed down evaluated my priorities and took one step at time.
now my kids know ttatt and i have set some goals in life, i am ready to take on my next project in my deprogramming.. intellectual intimidation.
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Emery
Thanks for this example. I don't suppose you can find out the WT reference for me. I don't have the CD rom, and the WT library doesn't go that far back.
May 1, 1981 Watchtower Magazine, "Question From Readers." You can find it on page 452 in "In Search of Christian Freedom" under the chapter, "Argumentation and Manipulation."
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Does WT use intellectual intimidation in publications?
by KateWild inwhen i first learned ttatt, i read loads all at once and tried to absorb everything.
then i slowed down evaluated my priorities and took one step at time.
now my kids know ttatt and i have set some goals in life, i am ready to take on my next project in my deprogramming.. intellectual intimidation.
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Emery
Ray Franz talks about intellectual intimidation in ISOCF. I think it's in the chapter where he discusses logical fallacies (i'll have to check), but he mentions a situation where the Watchtower Society received inquires about the word "organization" not being found in the bible. So WTS pulls up all these Hebrewand Greek words, and a bunch of complex jargon to convince the reader that the bible does say "organization" but in its own way.
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The dumest thing an elder ever said to me..
by new hope and happiness inconversation with an elder...i said " did you watch due south yesterday" and he said " ive got far more important things to do".
i mean that comment of his got me to thinking and wondering, and made me see he was missing out on living..and i think that comment was the straw that broke this boys faith, and started my i dont want to be a witness anymore.
kind of wierd how a simple question opened my eyes.. and now as i write this i am watching " the rebel" a 1950s western series, and its great and its even better my 9 year old is watching with me..and there is nothing more important than being happy.. .
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Emery
"Aliens are actually demons."
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Why Did the Governing Body Change Their Interpretation Of Matthew 24:45-47?
by Cameron_Don insome have wondered if "captives of a concept" had anything to do with why the governing body changed their interpretation of the most important scripture in their theology at their annual meeting on october 6, 2012.. this is because the book places great emphasis on the societys interpretation of matthew 24:45-47 and then holds them to it while examining the organizations history to make sure that went on in its history fits their interpretation.
this comparison is essential to the societys claim to being gods organization.. their previous interpretation came from their former most imminent bible scholar president frederick franzs in his "gods kingdom of a thousand years has approached.
" their history comes from their "jehovahs witnesses proclaimers of gods kingdom.".
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Emery
It still doesn't make sense when you look at the sequence of events relating to Matthew 24:45-47. According to "old light", the Master left in Pentecost 33 AD and appointed a slave which had existed for over 1800 years, feeding each succeeding generation. This actually made some sense when you look at the scripture, however, with the "new light" they're actually trying to rewrite the parable to suggest the domestics fed themselves while the Master was away. They're completely ignoring the parable by saying that NO ONE was feeding the domestics WHILE the master was away (from 33CE to 1919 CE). The parable clearly says the appointed slave was given the RESPONSIBILITY to feed the domestics WHILE the master was away and would be rewarded for his faithful service by acting as a good custodian of the master's possessions. This doctrine is so completely ridiculous and cultic it is beyond me.
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A Text Message Exchange
by Emery ini have been in the fading process for over a year now.
nobody has really bothered my wife and me since we've stopped, which i am thankful for.
recently, i've had an old jw friend send me a few text messages relating to business.
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Emery
Alright, my friend responded to my question.
Friend: Ok… I took a look at these accounts that you are referring to. Matthew 24:45, 57 is the prophecy being foretold of the faithful and discreet slave. They would provide food at the proper time. At Luke 19, verse 11 it clearly identifies that it’s just an ILLUSTRATION (he was teaching Zachaeus and the others). Look for the teaching in the illustration. As far as the minas, he’s saying, if you know the truth and bring in 100, wonderful! If you know the truth and bring in 1, good. If you know truth and do nothing with it, good for nothing.
The two accounts are to be viewed separate. One's an illustration for the ministry and the other is a prophecy. Jesus used slaves as examples that people could relate to as different ways to teach them. Much like in talks today we use illustrations to get our points across for different things. For instance, Jesus referred to himself multiple times in the gospels as “the vine” (John 15:1). But at Revelation 14:19 the vine is used to illustrate the people of the earth that are harvested and will be destroyed. So clearly, those two are not referring to the same vine at all. Things in those days were used as illustrations for the masses so they could understand. I use the same illustrations when I give different talks. Sometimes I change the illustration a little to meet what I’m trying to convey.
Me: Thanks for doing that research. I’ve been so busy today and haven’t had time to gather my thoughts yet.
Friend: You get a chance to read over it yet?
Okay so I am not going to respond to him with any more objections. However, if I had to respond, how should I go about doing so? Also, what he said makes absolutely no sense at all. I want to ask him how does one determine what is an “illustration” and what is a “prophecy”? But I think he would respond with, “the holy spirit guides the slave to determine this” or something around those lines.