a few weeks ago, j.r. brown, director of the office of public information of jehovahs witnesses was interviewed on ktar, a phoenix area radio station.
after listening to an audio tape of the interview given to me by a friend in the area, i thought some of you might find the following example of browns forthrightness interesting.
mcmahon: were looking at the jehovahs witnesses, uh with the help of its national spokesperson j. r. brown, ah, the jehovahs witness office, the director of offices--- the office of public information in brooklyn, new york and theres so many things to talk about particularly clearing up some areas of confusion, uh curiosity.
The thing that stuck out for me was the inference that the doctors are lying to you if they insist you need a transfusion. There are alternatives. Your life need not be in danger if you know the right doctors--like JWs do--who will treat you without blood. He actually said they don't look upon it as life-threatening.
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
part 2 - more confessions from steve hassons book, combatting cult mind control:.
keep it in mind folks, the experience here was moonies, not jehovahs witnesses.
thats what makes it good to show jws--they cant justify calling it apostate.. some basic principles of social psychology and group dynamics:.
Actually, proplog2, I think underneath it all you seem like a pretty decent fellow. I don't necessarily disagree with some of your objective rationale. I do think you are going a bit over the top with pseudo-rationalizing when you come up with oxymorons like "ambiguous high-level thinkging". And to say that JW-atheist is "incongruent" might be one polite way of defining it. It's not that I get a "kick" out of it--I just cannot imagine anyone living the JW lifestyle by choice without believing it necessary for salvation. Its not a mental scotoma, its bewilderment. Five meetings a week, going door-to-door with Watchtower literature, sitting through loooong, hot, boring assemblies--and you don't even believe in a supreme being?
Now if you were to admit that you remain in JWism because of loved ones you want to remain in good family relationship with, THAT I could understand. But in that case, you wouldn't need to come flying out of your corner at an article describing Moonies to defend the Watchtower organization.
You're an enigma, proplog2, that's all. (Doesn't make you a bad guy. It's your life. I don't have to understand it. :-)
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
for many years i thought that one wts argument against jesus being born in december was valid:.
"the sheep were out in the fields of bethlem when jesus was born.
there are sometimes snow in this area in december, so the event couldn't have taken place in that season.".
I think you're on the right track. :-)
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
for many years i thought that one wts argument against jesus being born in december was valid:.
"the sheep were out in the fields of bethlem when jesus was born.
there are sometimes snow in this area in december, so the event couldn't have taken place in that season.".
Bible scholars also point to the fact of Jesus' cousin, John the Baptist, being born six month prior to Jesus. Because John's father, Zechariah, was a temple priest, and temple priests had a programmed schedule for serving in the temple, through Jewish timelines they claim to be able to fix the approximate time of John's birth. Thereby, six months later, Jesus' birth, which they also figure to be in the fall-October time.
Sorry I don't have the specifics off the top of my head, but you get the general idea.
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
part 2 - more confessions from steve hassons book, combatting cult mind control:.
keep it in mind folks, the experience here was moonies, not jehovahs witnesses.
thats what makes it good to show jws--they cant justify calling it apostate.. some basic principles of social psychology and group dynamics:.
Interesting analysis.
So why did my aptitude tests (which was a three-day clinical test) rank highest (VERY high) in "creativity and abstract reasoning"?
Ever had your thinking professionally analyzed? ;-)
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
Edited once to correct terminiology.
we know the unification church (moonies) are a real cult.
but how can we say jehovahs witnesses are a cult?
consider some of the traits of a real cult revealed by a former moonie about the unification church.. =====================================================.
Waiting:
Yeh, I wonder why? ;-)
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
it's nice to see ros post here but unfortunately its the same anti-cult hype.
a cult is just about any organization that you decide to leave for one reason or another.
let's consider these enlightening comparisons of moonies and jw's.
Hi, Prop2:
ros:
Are you denying some kind of intent when you began your post on the Moonies?
Of course not. People are always accusing the WT of being a cult. I thought it would help clear up the matter with definitions from a "real" cult. What's your problem. If JWs are not a cult, it should become obvious by being compared to a "real" cult.
<<We know the Unification Church (“Moonies”) are a real cult. But how can we say Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult?How can YOU say Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult? Oh that's just some casual musing you didn't intend?
Okay, I could have worded that better. I should have said (and this is what I really meant): "But why do people say Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult? Here are some characteristics of a "real" cult. Seeing these traits of the Moonies, why would people think the JWs are a cult?"
ROS you have drifted from a crazy religion into a sea of mediocre thinking at best. We ALL repeat pretty much the same stuff. But your stuff appears too "same".
You're right, this is not new stuff. In years past I have posted it before. In fact, its direct cut-and-paste from an article on my website. I think in the midst of all the (what some people call) "fluff", we need to reiterate some of the basics for the new ones from time-to-time.
I really like what you have done generally.
<Faint!(((xxx))) ...> Fan me somebody! :-)
I also admire AlanF for some of his writing.
That I can understand. You actually believe as he does, you just happen to prefer the JW lifestyle by choice. (Now there's a real mystery.)
I even respect Bill Bowen for putting his "ass" out there in the public.
Well ... good for you. Thanks for admitting it in public.
I just think that some of the issues you use against the Watchtower while significant to YOU are totally impotent to accomplish your goal of toppling the Watchtower.
WHAT issues against the Watchtower? You must be referring to something else I've written. I am not trying to topple the Watchtower. I realize they have much too faithful a following to accomplish anything like that.
You don't see me chasing after JWs trying to get them out. You don't know me as well as you seem to think, Prop2. I don't care if people (like you) want to be JWs. I don't try to talk them out of it. As for the word "cult"--I agree with you; it's all how you define the word "cult".
When I was studying to become a JW, the ladies who studied with me proudly admitted JWs were a cult. I was taught by them they were a cult, and they were proud of it! You know why? Because Jesus and his apostles were a cult in their day. Being a "cult"--according to the ladies who studied with me--was a sign of being different--which "The Truth" had to be. It's all how you define a "cult", Proplog2. According to dictionary definition, its like you say, just about any organization could be classified as a cult in the strictest sense of the word. I agree.
Toppling the Watchtower? Nah. Too many people like you like it. For what its worth, I'm only really interested in affecting <i>primarily one thing</i> about the Watchtower religion--the SHUNNING of innocent people--taking their families away from them for nonsensical religious differences. While I'm also greatly interested in reform on reporting criminal behavior, like pedophiles, to legal authorities, and also allowing blood transfusion to be a matter of choice, I believe this would automatically follow in due course if their major weapon, the extreme shunning policy, were reformed. For example, if it were not for fear of the SHUNNING weapon, people in an emergency might opt for a blood transfusion--the ol' sin now and repent later.
I agree with you that there is a lot of other mind control in the world that we take for granted. If JWs would reform their shunning policy, they would be just another kook religion on the block to me, and I would have better things to do. It is for the shunned, and those who are deeply haunted by guilt for years after, that I am interested. Not for happy-to-be Jdubs.
When JWs contact me at Beacon website (who invariably pretend to be non-JWs outraged at the persecution of 'those' nice people), I tell them out-right they are not supposed to be reading my site. Let Jehovah's Witnesses who are happy being Jehovah's Witnesses be Jehovah's Witnesses. Just stop hurting the people who are not, and I'll leave them to their blind bliss.
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
part 2 - more confessions from steve hassons book, combatting cult mind control:.
keep it in mind folks, the experience here was moonies, not jehovahs witnesses.
thats what makes it good to show jws--they cant justify calling it apostate.. some basic principles of social psychology and group dynamics:.
Dear prop:
You're forgetting again--it's talking about "Moonies". Besides, I'm just quoting.
Besides, any atheist who lives the JW life shouldn't be calling anybody dumb. That's hard enough even to do even for those who think it's the will of God! Some can't even manage it.
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
it's nice to see ros post here but unfortunately its the same anti-cult hype.
a cult is just about any organization that you decide to leave for one reason or another.
let's consider these enlightening comparisons of moonies and jw's.
Proplog2:
Who said it was about Jehovah's Witnesses? :-)
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
part 2 - more confessions from steve hassons book, combatting cult mind control:.
keep it in mind folks, the experience here was moonies, not jehovahs witnesses.
thats what makes it good to show jws--they cant justify calling it apostate.. some basic principles of social psychology and group dynamics:.
Part 2 - More confessions from Steve Hasson’s book, Combatting Cult Mind Control:
Keep it in mind folks, the experience here was Moonies, not Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s what makes it good to show JWs--they can’t justify calling it ‘apostate’.
Some basic principles of Social Psychology and Group Dynamics:
The net result of these studies has been the consistent demonstrataion of the remarkable power of behavior modification techniques, group conformity, and obedience to authority. These three factors are known in psychological terms as the "influence process." [p.58]
* In totalistic cults, the ideology is internalized as "the truth," the only "map" or reality. The doctrine not only serves to filter incoming information but also regulates how the information can be thought about. . . The doctrine claims to answer all questions to all problems and situations. [p.61]
* Another key aspect of thought control involves training members to block out any information which is critical of the group. [p.62]
* If information transmitted to a cult member is perceived as an attack on either the leader, the doctrine, or the group, a hostile wall goes up. Members are trained to disbelieve any criticism. Critical words have been explained away in advance as "the lies about us that Satan puts in peoples' minds" . . . Paradoxically, criticism of the group confirms that the cult's view of the world is correct. The information presented does not register properly. [p.62]
* Emotional control . . . terror of discovery and punishment by the leaders. [p.63
[p.63]
* Anyone who finds himself in a cult confession session should remember this warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you. This device can even extend to blackmail if you leave the cult. [p.63]
* The most powerful technique for emotional control is phobia indoctrination . . . People are made to have a panic reaction at the thought of leaving, . . . [p.64]
* When cult leaders tell the public "Members are free to leave any time they want; the door is open," they give the impression that members have free will and are simply choosing to stay. Actually, members may not have a real choice, because they have been indoctrinated to have a phobia of the outside world. Induced phobias eliminate the psychological possibility of a person choosing to leave the group merely because he is unhappy or wants to do something else. [p.65]
* Information control also extends across all relationships. People are not allowed to talk to each other about anything critical of the leader, doctrine, or organizatiaon. Members must spy on each other and report improper activities or comments to leaders. [p.65]
* Most importantly, people are told to avoid contact with ex-members or critics. Those who could provide the most information are the ones to be especially shunned. [p.65]
* Cult members naturally feel they know more about what's going on in their group than outsiders do, but in counseling ex-members I find that they often know the least. [p.65]
* Destructive organizations also control information by having many levels of "truth." Cult ideologies have "outsider" doctrines and "insider" doctrines. The outsider material is relatively bland stuff for the general public or fresh converts. The inner doctrines are unveiled only gradually as a person gets in deeper. [p.66]
* The Doctrine Is Reality - There is no room in a mind control environment for regarding the group's beliefs as mere theory, or as a way to interpret reality or to seek reality. The doctrine is reality. [p.78]
* Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person distrust his own self. The doctrine becomes the "master program" for all thoughts, feelings, and actions. Since it is the TRUTH, perfect and absolute, any flaw in it is viewed as only a reflection of the believer's own imperfection. He is taught that he must follow the prescribed formula even if he doesn't really understand it. At the same time he is told that he should try to work harder and have more faith so he will come to understand the truth more clearly. [p.79]
* The doctrine allows no outside group to be recognized as valid (good, godly, real) because that would threaten the cult's monopoly on truth. There is also no room for interpretation or deviation. If the doctrine doesn't provide an answer directly, then the member must ask a leader. If the leader doesn't have an answer, he can always brush off the question as unimportant or irrelevant. [p.79]
* Some groups cultivate a psychic paranoia, telling members that spirit beings are constantly observing them, even taking possession of them whenever they feel or think in non-cult ways. [p.79]
* Elitist Mentality - Members are made to feel part of an elite corps of mankind. This feeling of being special, of participating in the most important acts in human history with a vanguard of committed believers, is strong emotional glue to keep people sacrificing and working hard. [p.80]
* Ironically, members of cults look down on anyone involved in any other cult groups. They are very quick to acknowledge that "Those people are in a cult" or "They are the ones who are brainwashed." They are unable to step out of their own situations and look at themselves objectively. [p.80]
* This feeling of elitism and destiny, however, carries a heavy burden of responsibility. Members are told that if they do not fully perform their duties they are failing all of mankind. [p.80]
* Group Will over Individual Will - In all destructive cults the self must submit to the group. . . . In any group that qualifies as a destructive cult, think of oneself or for oneself is wrong. The group comes first. Absolute obedience to superiors is one of the most universal themes in cults. Individuality is bad. Conformity is good. [p.80]
* Happiness through Good Performance - One of the most attractive qualities of cult life is the sense of community that it fosters. The love seems to be unconditional and unlimited at first, and new members are swept away by a honeymoon of praise and attention. But after a few months, as the person becomes more enmeshed, the flattery and attention are turned away toward newer recruits. The cult member learns that love is not unconditional but depends on good performance. [p.80]
* Indeed, when cult members go through hardship (fundraising in freezing cold or broiling heat) or persecution (being arrested for violations of law or harassed by outsiders), they do feel a depth of camaraderie and shared martyrdom that is exceptional. But because the only real allegiance is to the leader, a closer look shows that such ties are actually shallow and sometimes just private fantasy. [p.82]
* Problems are always the fault of the member, and are due to his weak faith, his lack of understanding, "bad ancestors," evil spirits, and so forth. He perpetually feels guilty for not meeting standards. . . . In every destructive cult I have encountered, fear is a major motivator. [p.82]
* Many groups teach that the apocalypse is just around the corner. Some say they are preventing the apocalypse; others merely believe that they will survive it. . . . To a cult member, the future is a time when you will be rewarded because the great change has finally come. [p.83]
* Many groups have timetables for the apocalypse, which tends to be two to five years away--far enough not to be discredited any time soon, near enough to carry emotional punch. These predictions have a way of fading into the background as the big date approaches. In other groups, the timetable is believed right until it actually fails to come true.[p.83]
* Usually the leader just issues a new timetable that moves the big event up a few years. After he does this a few times, a few long-term members may become cynical. Of course, by then there is a whole set of new members unaware that the leader has been shifting the timetable. [p.83]
* In a destructive cult, there is never a legitimate reason for leaving. . . . Members are thoroughly indoctrinated with the belief that if they ever do leave, terrible consequences will befall them, their family, and/or mankind. [p.84]
* Although cult members will often say "Show me a way that is better than mine and I will quit," they are not allowed the time or mental tools to prove that statement to themselves. They are locked in a psychological prison. [p.84]
* Leaders were not "in it for the money" but . . . were, in my opinion, addicted to personal power. Many destructive Bible cults have leaders who are not conspicuous consumers and who appear to hold God and the Bible above them in authority; yet, interpretation of the Bible and God's will is used to manipulate and control people. [p.99]
* Does the group's doctrine claim publicly to be one thing when it is in fact otherwise? [p.99]
* Deception includes outright lying, leaving out important information, or distorting information . . . Most recruiters from destructive cults will deny that they are trying to recruit anyone at all. [p.100]
* In destructive cults, large amounts of time are spent in group activities, with a minimum of time allowed for privacy or for friends and family. Little time is available for reading anything other than cult material or for learning anything other than cult practices. Of course, members go out of their way to convince outsiders that they are living a "normal" life. Yet, if you get cult members into a long discussion of current events, or art, or history, it becomes evident that most are out of touch. [p.102]
* One of the most obvious signs of a person in a mind control group is a lack of independent decision making abilities. Even though cult members try to convince outsiders that they are autonomous, once you probe beyond the surface it becomes obvious that they cannot make important decisions without first asking permission from superiors. [p.102-103]
* The final criterion for judging a group is the members' freedom to leave. To put it simply, members of destructive cults are psychological prisoners. As I have explained, destructive cults plant phobias into members' minds so that they fear ever leaving the group. [p.104]
* One question I frequently hear is whether all destructive cults are equally dangersous. The answer is simple, "no," as any common-sense look at cults would prove. Not every group is as destructive, for example, as the "People's Temple, or as extreme as the terrorist cults of the Middle East. Nor is every group as deceptive, as demanding, and as dangerous to an individual, his family, or society as is the Moon organization. . . . Another question I occasionally encounter is whether destructive cults change over time in significant ways. The answer is yes. Groups that use mind control may start off with extremely good intentions but end up manipulating their members and deceiving the public. [p.105]
* The clincher question is whether or not the person has taken the time to talk with former members and read critical literature in order to make up his own mind. A person under mind control might say that he would be willing to do this. However, I have often seen family members call the member's bluff, and almost always the cult member doesn't follow through. If he does, he is well on his way out of the group. [p.110]
* Rational discussions are simply not effective with someone who has been indoctrinated with mind control [p.140]
* Don't send unsolicited critical articles, . . . Such information actually does more harm than good. [p.146]
* Every person in a cult has been programmed to stop all "negative" thoughts about the leader, the doctrine, or the organization, and has also been indoctrinated to believe that this group is superior to all other groups and different from all other groups. [p.165]
* "Kick-Outs - I've encountered quite a few people who were kicked out of their group, ostensibly because they were bucking authority and asking too many questions. . . . The people who have been kicked out of a destructive cult are always in the worst shape of all former cult members. They feel rejection not only from the group members but, in the case of religious cults, from God Himself. . . . These people, phobic toward the world outside their cults, have been cast into what they view as utter darkness. For many "kick-outs," suicide seems a real alternative to their suffering. [p.170]
* It is essential that former members acknowledge and work through their pain, and go through the necessary grieving period. What seems to help the most is to enable people to realize that positive things did come out of their involvement, and to show them how they can now be much stronger because of the experience. [p.173]
* Mystical manipulation can take on a special quality . . . because the leaders become mediators for God. The God-centered principles can be forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation. [p.202]
