More Anti-Cult Crap

by proplog2 23 Replies latest jw friends

proplog2

It's nice to see Ros post here but unfortunately its the same anti-cult hype. A cult is just about any organization that you decide to leave for one reason or another. Let's consider these enlightening comparisons of Moonies and JW's
* The Moonies do a very thorough job of convincing people that
former members are satanic and that even being in their presence
could be dangerous. [p.3]
JW's teach that former members are generally considered to have
lost their faith but who may like the prodigal son feel regrets and return. Opposers who actively try to lure other
JW's away from their faith ARE satanic by definition. Jesus
accused Peter of being Satan when he was simply trying to save
Jesus from his fate.
There IS a difference between simply leaving an organization and
actively trying to destroy an organization.
The same can be said for citizenship. You can be a lousy citizen but if you go against the US constitution you will be considered a rebel.
* It is ironic that whereas Moon's stated goal is to unify the
world, many of his strategies foster jealousy and spite among
leaders, virtually insuring a lack of unity. [p.23]
This is rather vague in its application to JW's. JW's have never
said the world would be united by their work. Even Jesus knew that
there would be divisions caused in families etc by his message.
If causing disunity is your concern you had better focus on the
bitterness between political parties. Have you listened to Rush
Limbaugh lately? Or Rosie O'Donnel?
* The more people opposed us, the more committed we felt. [p.24]
This is human nature. Did you ever hear of stubbornness?
On a political level "If you're not with us you're against us"
* It was as if we were God's army in the middle of a spiritual war-
-the only ones who could go to the front lines and fight Satan each
day. [p.24]
Sounds like a typical Christian viewpoint. Salvation army?
Jesuits?
* The Moonies wanted to keep me from pursuing some disturbing
questions about the validity of the "time parallels" used in the
"History of Restoration" lecture. I had discovered some glaring
inconsistencies. It was dangerous for someone in my position in the
organization to ask questions that couldn't be answered. [p.25]
This is typical authoritarianism and parochialism. This is a
typical response when you challenge orthodoxy whether its religious,
scientific, or political.
* Indeed, it was my ideals and my own fantasy of an ideal world
that had lured me into the Moonies. Those ideals ultimately enabled
me to walk out and publicly condemn cult mind control. [p.33]
Some people remain in the moonies because of their idealism. In
the political arena you often hear "My country - right or wrong"
Such people are often honored as heroes.
* In the United States, cults exert tremendous economic clout by
buying up huge blocks of real estate and taking over hundreds of
businesses. [p.36]
What's wrong with religious groups having economic clout? Do you
like Bill Gate's economic clout? Ted Turners economic clout? One
of the things that comes with being a significant player in a
society is "clout".
Without the US constitution JW's wouldn't have much clout.
* They indoctrinate members to show only the best sides of the
organization. Members are taught to suppress any negative feelings
they have about the group and always show a continually smiling,
"happy" face. [p.41]
Sounds like Enron, Monsanto, Owens-Corning. Come on. It's called
"P-U-B-L-C R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S". Do you think the Mormons aren't
getting plenty of good press in connection with the olympics?
I can't think of any organization that doesn't want to put their
best foot forward.
* In some cults, members are systematically made to be phobic about
ever leaving the group. Today's cults know how to effectively
implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious
minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever
being happy and successful outside of the group. [p.45]
The same can be said about devout Catholics. Study Irish family
life. Everyone is motivated by maximizing pleasure and avoiding
"pain". Pleasure or pain can be imagined. Remember "hell-fire".
* In the same way, cult phobias take away people's choices. Members
truly believe they will be destroyed if they leave the safety of
the group. They think there are no other ways for them to grow--
spiritually, intellectually, or emotionally. They are virtually
enslaved by this mind control technique. [p.46]
The very act of deciding is a way of taking away your choices.
Marriage cuts you off from sex with anyone you may choose (in most
cases). A unique characteristic of Religion is that the rewards
and punishments are all imaginary. We are not enslaved by mind
control techniques. We are enslaved by choices and habit.
* Everyone, like it or not, is vulnerable to mind control. Everyone
wants to be happy. Everyone needs affection and attention. Everyone
is looking for something better in life: more wisdom, more
knowledge, more money, more status, more meaning, better
relationships, or better health. These basic human qualities and
needs are exactly what cult recruiters prey upon. It is important
to remember that for the most part, people don't join cults. Cults
recruit people. [p.48]
Yes everyone is vulnerable to control. Mind control is when you
choose to go along with the program. It doesn't matter what
organization, program, country, religion, business you associate
with you will experience persuasion and influence. No one likes
disruption. The last statement is really stupid. "People don't
join cults. Cults recruit people." Every organization wants to
grow. They all have recruitment drives. PTA, Girl Scouts, Red
Cross etc. etc. Canada and Russia need people. Indiana and Iowa
need tourists.
Once again you can see the mind control efforts of the "anti-cult"
movement.
Amazing

Hi Proplog2: Cult mentality does run through many groups and organizations. It comes in varying degrees. The more extreme, the more dangerous.
Some of your examples suggest to me that you may not fully grasp the nature of cults. You do not seem to understand how a group crosses the line in human interaction, thus making them a cult. Your comparison of citizen's who go against the US Constitution is one area where I think you miss the boat. The US system of government has "Checks and Balances" whereby ordinary citizens and groups have redress of grievances. They can work to change the laws.
With cults, like the JWs, there is no honorable way to openly disagree and work toward change. The control at the top is total, complete blind corrupted power. Historical examples of Hitler and the Nazis, or Stalin and the Communists are better cross-comparisons of what cults are about in a political sense.
Your post almost suggests that JWs are no worse or different than other religious, political, or business groups. Then the comparison to Jesus calling Peter "Satan" demonstrates to me your misunderstanding of what Jesus was really saying, what he really meant.
The Jehovah's Witness religion fits the accepted definition of a "cult" ... they are not the worst or most dangerous ... but they ARE a cult. To turn a blind eye to this by arguing as you have is to ignore a serious situation: The life-threatening harm caused by the religion. Too many JWs have needlessly been persecuted, imprisoned, raped, tortured and murdered over nonsense ... such nonsense that could and should have been prevented by its leaders.
As for "Mind-Control" ... I can agree that the victims do join voluntarily. That is where our agreement ends. Hassan made strong arguments that draw a distinction between Brainwashing and Mind-Control. Mind-Control does alter the personna such that they join a group by choice - but it is a misinformed choice. Information is controlled. Emotional Fraud is committed against the unsuspecting.
Example: You are invited to a Business Opportunity Seminar. It is held on the yacht of the Leader of the Business Group. You are given a bunch of information that will make you wealthy with minimal work. You are mezmerized by the long program. While you are so engrossed, the Leader has his crew set sail. You and the other passangers do not notice much as the ship sails out into Internatinal waters.
One day you wake up and realize that something is wrong with the picture. You finally demand to go home. You are told that you will return shortly, soon, anytime now. But the ship keeps sailing out farther and farther to sea.
Eventually, you come to realize that the only way you are going to get away is to swim home. The rest of the duped passangers still trust and believe the Leader. They chide you and call you names for being a traitor.
Did you really "let" this happen or were you kidnapped? Likewise, the JW religion emotinally kidnaps peoples minds and hearts and eventually their whole social structure is so locked into the religion that they never notice they are out to sea with no easy option to leave the boat.
ianao

Amazing:
Another brilliant post I read today with your name on it. I just hope proplog actually reads and digests it instead of donning those rose-colored lenses.
Whoops! Maybe I just put him/her/it in attack mode?
compton

right on! Do you remember Jesus speaking of the scribes and Pharisee's said" let them be
blinds guides are what they are.
proplog2

Amazing:
There are laws that could only be changed by Civil Disobedience. That's why Blacks and many whites in the USA admire Martin Luther King. There are ways to change JW teachings also. Sometimes it may require being disfellowshipped. Religious groups are harder to change because it is generally less of an inconvenience to leave a religion than to move to another country. Try to get the Catholic Church to change their position on birth control! or to have women priests - or to allow priests to marry. Don't give me the BS that I don't understand cults. Cult is just a label and you can slide the criteria around to match any organization you want to harm. What is the "line" that marks acceptable human interraction. You choose to draw that line based on YOUR discomfort. The six million JW's draw the line somewhere else. A billion Catholics draw the line in another place.
I can't defend stupid doctrine like "blood transfusions" nor can I defend the inquisition or the fighting going on between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. I can't defend the forceful enslavement of Blacks by the writers of the American Constitution or the prohibition against women voting. I can't defend the ritual mutilation of little babies via circumcision. All of these things are REAL EVILS committed by organizations as they evolve. These things don't define them as cults. There is NO scietific way to validate the term. You can define something as a cult for YOUR purposes. You can talk about your BAD experiences. But this is not scientific enough to translate into public policy.
How can you prove that people who became JW's or any other religion were misinformed - unless you are an Atheist and conclude that "all" religious membership is a consequence of misinformation.
Your analogy of the ship is absurd and has no homologue in anything we are discussing.
2SYN

Excellent post Amazing! Keep up the good work of the Lord!
I agree with everything you say. I also think that PropLog2 is missing the point entirely, and is ignoring the fact that the BOrganization is, to quote you:
The control at the top is total, complete blind corrupted power...
Mr PropLog2 (you know I'm MAD when I start addressing people using formal English syntax), tell us how the minions of the Watchtower (ie. the little people, the Great Crowd) are allowed to protest and change the rules of their Society. Name one way, please.
I can guarantee you Mr. PropLog2 will now tell us how the rules are made by God. CRAP! Jesus told his followers to love one another - that that was the greatest commandment of all, besides worshipping God. All the other commandments fall by the wayside. This theme is repeated over and over again in the Bible, yet the WTBTS chooses to ignore it in favour of strengthening their existing user base (yes, user base - the WTBTS is one of the most addictive drugs in the world!) by making more petty rules which hurt people and destroy families. Oh, and don't forget the "New Light" that pops up with unfailing regularity. It would be OK, except for the fact that some of the "Old Light" was so LUDICROUS it wasn't even funny.
PropLog2, have you ever wondered why the WTBTS never shows people the Photo-Drama of Creation anymore? Simple: They are busy changing their belief system as science proves them wrong time and time again. Mr. PropLog2, I'm willing to bet money that you've not seen that Photo-Drama thing yet. Go check it out (easily available on the Web, just use Google), and then come back and tell us what you think.
OUT
The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age
gravedancer

Proplog
So is there a point to the stuff you are writing? Are you willing to say that JW's are NOT a cult? What do you say? Are they just slightly misled?
Please enlighten me.
Cygnus

All I can say is, thank Yahweh I have known proplog2 for five years and can totally understand where he is coming from.
Unfortunately for him, he will probably now feel compelled to waste several hours explaining himself to these people who are too quick to judge his motives and point of view.
AlanF

As usual, proplog, you've completely missed the boat. The word "cult" is indeed open to a broad range of definitions ranging from "an organization I don't like" to "any religion at all" to "a really wierd group". However, when one clearly defines a set of criteria, such as Steve Hassan does in his books, and when one restricts one's application to those criteria, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that a certain group falls within those criteria and thus is a "cult" in that sense. Your argument is much like the Watchtower Society's blanket claim that JWs are not a "sect" because they don't have a human leader.
Another consideration you've missed is the most usual popular usage of the word. If you take a random poll you'll find that most people would consider Scientology, the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, the Japanese Aum group, the Solar Temple group, and such to be cults. Why? Because these groups are "wierd" in the minds of most people. But not just wierd in a general sense. They're considered wierd in the sense that they cause group members to become fanatical in some way. The old Flat Earth Society certainly had some wierd ideas but most people would not have considered them a cult because they mostly kept to themselves and did not go out and proselytize. Nor did they actively try to get group members to shun or even cause damage to people who quit the group. It is these things that in most peoples' minds define a cult: fanatical proselytization, tendency to demonize and/or shun former members, tendency to damage former members, a claim to be inspired or actively directed by a supernatural or supernatural-like force, a tendency to be dishonest about the full range of beliefs and actions required of members. All of these things are a product of what most people think of when they think about "mind control", which is what people like Hassan try carefully to define.
According to the above discussion, the Catholic Church is not generally considered a cult because it does not demonize most critics or those who quit, it does not engage in fanatical proselytizing, it does not actively try to damage former Catholics, it does not teach that its doctrines are virtually inspired, and it does not withhold doctrinal information about required beliefs and practices. It is considered a mainstream religion, not a cult, for those reasons. Within the Church you can find a number of subgroups that most people do consider cults, but these are irrelevant to the Church as a whole. The Church's history is also not particularly relevant, since governments have put a stop to its former cultish behavior.
Thus your statement that "a cult is just about any organization that you decide to leave for one reason or another" is ludicrous and shows that you do not understand what the word "cult" means in general parlance.
I used to argue that JWs are not a cult in the sense that Hassan describes, but I now understand that this was largely my own emotional revulsion to admitting that I had been raised in a cult. But there is no shame in that -- only sadness at lost opportunities. It is now clear to me that Jehovah's Witnesses are a true cult in Hassan's sense and in the sense that most people think of cults. They fit most of Hassan's criteria, and they fit the criteria I listed above:
JWs certainly tend to demonize those who leave. There are plenty of people on this board who can testify to being 'marked' or even shunned merely for quietly leaving the religion. My wife is shunned by her two JW siblings merely because she quietly quit. The practices of disfellowshipping and disassociation are explicit practices of demonizing people, and are direct acts that damage people. These practices are threats that, in the social context of JWs, tend to force compliance with "the rules".
There is no question that JWs demonize critics, whereas mainstream religions not considered cults do not. Non-cultish religions do not consider themselves to be spokesmen for God, and so they don't consider criticism of them to be criticism of God or of their claimed God-given position. We know perfectly well how careful a JW has to be when he has opinions that differ from those of the organization. If he expresses them he faces censure, expulsion and shunning.
JWs are certainly fanatical proselytizers. One cannot rise in the ranks of JWs unless one carefully adheres to the rules about "putting in time" in proselytizing.
Anyone who becomes a JW quickly learns how certain beliefs and practices are either not mentioned at all, or are described with vague, righteous-sounding terms that hide the full import of the belief. For example, the Knowledge book describes the practice of disfellowshipping as "keeping the congregation clean". However, the term "disfellowship" is not used, and the related practice of shunning those who voluntarily disassociate, or who are forcibly "disassociated", is not described at all. It is not explained that if you leave simply because you no longer belief all the JW teachings, and you express your reasons for leaving, you have an excellent chance of being disfellowshipped and cut off from your family and friends. This dishonesty is endemic to the Watchtower. Its website answers the question, "Do JWs shun former members?" with the thoroughly misleading "Those who simply leave are not shunned." Various JW publications answer the question, "Do JWs teach that only they will survive Armageddon?" with the entirely misleading "No. The Bible teaches that many will be resurrected and get salvation." Need I explain why this is completely misleading?
There are plenty of fanatics alright. Those who proclaim "my country right or wrong" are certainly fanatics. So are those who act according to "my religion right or wrong". But such fanatics only become a cult when they organize into an insular group. Thus the Jesuits are a borderline cult by most common definitions, and in the past when they acted against people they were unquestionably a cult.
Your misunderstanding of the term "cult" and of those who fight against cults is shown clearly by this statement:
: The last statement is really stupid. "People don't join cults. Cults recruit people." Every organization wants to grow...
In context the statement "people don't join cults" does not mean what it appears to say. It means, "People don't knowingly join a group they consider to be a cult. They join a group that they come to agree with and don't consider to be a cult." You'd understand this, proplog, if you'd remove that rafter from your brain and actually read Hassan's books and the writings of other cult fighters.
AlanF
gravedancer

cyg,
We have not all had the "luxury" of knowing proplog2 for 5 years...so we need to cram to get up to speed.

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