Posts by ros

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

ros

Hi, aChristian:

Thanks for sending a copy of your last post here to my private e-mail. That is where I responded. :-)

Blessings,
Ros

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

I tried to reply to your e-mails sent to my private e-mail, to explain, AGAIN, that I've heard most of the trinity arguments, ad infinum ad nauseum, and I DO NOT DEBATE doctrine with trinitarians. However, the reply bounced as undeliverable. The substance of my reply was essentially that I disagree with trinitarians Bible interpretations, but won't spend the time it takes to go into all the details. Trinity debates are not only pointless, they are boring to anyone other than trinitarians. Its like trying to show devout JWs the truth about 1914--a waste of time. So I don't.

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

ros

Hi, aChristian:

As usual, this is turning into a trinitarian debate, so I'm going to bow out at this point. Its not that I don't have answers, its that I know this becomes an endless merry-go-round. If I respond to this, there will be more, and more, and more ....
You're right in what you mention I know, except for one thing, which I'll make a brief parting comment:

I'm not aware that the Bible says the name "Jesus" (Yeshua, btw) will be above every name in the sense of given name. Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua was then, and is now in some cultures, a common Israelite name. In the Jewish culture, "name" did not necessarily refer to the person's given name. (Should I have begun that last sentence with "As you know,...")
aChristian, I think you might be more trinitarian than you admit. :-)

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

14

Valentines Day

by Lee Elder in

jw
friends

sitting here sipping an italian margarita and getting ready.

to enjoy a romantic dinner with my beautiful wife of 20 years.

it just hits me - how great is this?

ros

Lee, and your beautiful wife (really true btw), and all you other valentines, hope you had a lovely day.

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

ros

Hi, aChristian:

On the surface your explanation of how Jesus could become God (Do you put a big G or a little g on that word when you use it to describe Jesus?) seems to be a good one.

Cap, when it is after Pentecost.

Kings and queens do often abdicate their thrones to their heirs.

And Christ was "heir". An heir has to "inherit" what they are heir to from someone else.

The only problem I have with that is that the God of the Bible seems to say that He would never do such a thing. "I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion." (Ex. 20:5) Jesus said the same thing. He said, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Matt. 4:10) Yet we know he accepted "worship," the same Greek word he used in Matt. 4:10. (Matt.28:9,17; Luke 24:52) Many other things come to mind. For instance, God said, "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory." (Isa. 42:8)

Yes, as you might imagine, I'm familiar with the trinitarian debate. :-)
What you have alluded to here, in itself, would take hours to debate. That's why I don't debate it. If I can answer with fairly brief comments, I will. I will just point out that while you say Jehovah seems to say he will never relinquish, you probably realize there are scripture texts that I can produce that say he will relinquish, both throne and a "new name". He was the one and only god of Israel.

However, Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is destined to come in the glory of his father." (Matt. 16:27)

Which I don't find to be contrary to the analogy. A prince, or even a soldier, comes in the glory of their king, so to speak.

As I've said before, I'm not sure how I feel about the Trinity doctrine. But I believe that the Father and Son are One in a far greater way than the way JWs say they are.

Certainly so. The WTS does not acknowledge the deity of Christ at all.

I think you are right to fully examine the belief as anything else. You have to come to the conclusion that makes the most sense to you. I'm certain its not an issue for salvation, although judging others for their belief is. So trinitarians who claim belief in their doctrine is essential for salvation, that's riskier imo.

Fwiw, it was once pointed out to me that if the Biblical scribes Jewish leaders had not become superstituous about God's OT name, leaving it out of the Greek translations, the whole confusion that has led to the trinity doctrine might never have occurred.

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

ros

Hello, Faithful2Jah:

First let me say I agree with BlueSapphire on one point:
Its not important whether we mortals correctly perceive God, because we can’t. Love is the issue, and, in my opinion, the knowledge of good and evil. That’s what this life is about.

To respond to your question, let me refer to the imagery of the Bible, that of a kingdom.

Old Testament:
* Kingdom = monarchy = Israel/Universe
* Monarch = God, Soverign
* King = monarch = OT Jehovah
* Prince = heir to the throne = (Let’s let that one alone for the moment. :-)

A kingdom is a monarchy.
It has a one reigning monarch, a king (or queen).
All honor and glory must be rendered to the reigning monarch.
The first-born son is a prince who is heir to his father’s throne.
He is not his father, he was begotten of his father, and will inherit the kingdom from his father when he becomes the king. Then, all honor and glory will go to the son, when he becomes the king, the reigning one monarch.

In the ideal story throughout human history, a prince would go forth into the world, lead armies against the foes of his Father's kingdom, conquer them and return to his Father victorious, take a bride, and eventually inherit the throne to the Kingdom, thus himself becoming the King, the one monarch.

The queen of England is the one reigning monarch of Britain.
Prince Charles is heir to the throne.
If Queen Elizqbeth relinquishes the throne to her begotten son, he will become King Charles, the one reigning monarch. Then, by her will and decree, all honor and glory would be transferred to her begotten son, heir to the throne, for by her command and will, he would become the one monarch of the kingdom.

Would she not still be “Queen” Elizabeth?
Would she not still the king’s mother, his parent who bore him and gave him birth? Would he not still be bound to honor her as his mother?

According to 1Cor.15 and Rev.20 and 21, Christ rules only until he defeats death, then he will relinquish the throne back to his Father and once again become subject to his father. According to Rev. 21, “New Jerusalem” (the bride of Christ, 144,000, the kingdom) descends upon the “New Earth” and “God will dwell with men.”

That’s the imagery of the Bible.

If you would like to discuss it further, I’d rather do it off-line. You’re welcome to post me at: [email protected]

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

14

More Confessions of a former MOONIE - Part #2

by ros in

jw
friends

part 2 - more confessions from steve hassons book, combatting cult mind control:.

keep it in mind folks, the experience here was moonies, not jehovahs witnesses.

thats what makes it good to show jws--they cant justify calling it apostate.. some basic principles of social psychology and group dynamics:.

ros

cellomould:

I can understand agnosticism after JWs, especially if you were raised in the religion under that mind cohersion about God. (I'm personally not able to relate to total atheism.) If JW concept of God is all you've ever known, and then you come out and learn science, I can relate to agnosticism, especially if fundamentalism seems to be the alternative.

proplog2:
Okay, I can relate to that. :-) (The use of time, not the atheism.)
But it still ain't like freedom.

Blessings,
Ros

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

29

What will you do on the last day?

by Skimmer in

jw
friends

what will you do on the last day?

the last day of the wtbts, that is.. it may take a quarter century (i predict 2027), but the last day of the wtbts is going to come sooner or later.

preferably sooner, of course.

ros

She has fallen! Brooklyn the Great has fallen, has fallen ...

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

125

Ya'll dont believe in God?

by flower in

jw
friends

i have to ask this although i have a feeling i dont really want to read the responses but anyway.

i talked to several people here today who dont believe there is a god at all.

this is disturbing!

ros

I'm a believer.
But if you want to know what I believe and why, you'll have to ask specific questions. To explain it all would take volumes.

For starters:
I believe in God, but not the Trinity.
I believe the Bible, but not literalism.
I believe Christ was the Messiah for reasons that I have studied.
I believe in factual evolution, but not some of the hypotheses.
I do not believe science and faith are in conflict, I believe science reveals much about God. More so than the Bible. But the Bible has an underlying story that you have to read between the lines. It becomes apparent the more you study it, especially from the Judeo perspective.

Ros

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

31

The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless in

this question applies to those exjws who are at peace with god:.

do you now believe in the trinity?.

for myself, it took awhile for me to accept the trinity doctrine, but i finally came to believe!.

ros

I am Christian. Do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. I do believe that Christ was deified, and is our God, but is not the Father.

I'll state my belief but not debate it.

Ros

Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7