i received this email only seconds ago and i'm just passing it on to those that knew jan, i have no other details:.
jan groenveld will no longer be a part of these forums.
she passed away in her sleep last night.
I have been off-line for a few days. I just saw this thread.
I did not always agree with Jan, but she was one of the first I knew on-line.
I received e-mail from her only days ago. I'm very saddened by this news.
My sincere consolences.
Blessings,
~Ros
and for those reasons, coj wanted in the beginning, to stay with the organization, just like bill bowens.
that is all carl wanted.
yes, as members of the governing body, they knew full well, exactly what carl's writings meant.
Hello all,
Forgive me if my comments have been covered by other posters in this thread, I've not had time to read them all.
I do not question the sincerity or desire to be objective by the person who started this thread, who in this thread calls him/herself bjc2012. However, I might question as Prisca did whether the person has actually read COJ's "Gentile Times Reconsidered" or Ray Franz' "Crisis of Conscience". The reason being that some of his/her questions are somewhat addressed therein.
First, in COJ's book, "Gentile Times Reconsidered", he publishes in the foreward of that book a letter of apology he received from Ray Franz. Does bjc2012 realize that Ray and COJ have become good friends? Ray actually formatted the second edition of COJ's book for publishing. As well, Ray explains (reveals) about COJ's research in "Crisis of Conscience", and Commentary Press promoted (promotes) COJ's books ("Gentile Times Reconsidered" AND "The Sign of the Last Days--When?" which is an extraordinary study of the so-called "composite sign").
Contrary to "You Knows" propaganda of a Ray Franz movement, it does not exist. People simply respect him for his confessions.
~Ros
i would not have posted this, but the subject just doesn't go away.
i would like to comment on the differences in the two men.
first of all, they come from different eras.
Hi, Larc:
And I respect your opinions as well. :-)
A heartfelt apology (one that makes real sense) might go a long way. The absense of it is significant. It does little good for others to apologize for him.
Blessings,
~Ros
bill bowen has divided his own house.
most here supported his efforts and still do, what he has done is cause a fire among his own supporters here, his large army of friends here.
it's not rf supporters against bb supporters it's really silentlambs org.
Lest we forget:
It is not Bill Bowen who has the "smoking gun" against the WTS on covering up child abuse; it is Barbara Anderson.
~Ros
i would not have posted this, but the subject just doesn't go away.
i would like to comment on the differences in the two men.
first of all, they come from different eras.
Sorry, Larc, but I see no excuse whatsoever for Bowen's slanderous attack on Ray. Bowen's tactic may be good in politics, but it had no place in the Silent Lambs objectives in my opinion.
~Ros
i talked at length with ray franz this afternoon regarding the following comments by bill bowen: ray franz supports the wt policy on child abuse.
he is the author of the two eye witness rule as well as the slander issue that prevents anyone from warning another of child abuse in the congregation.
it is interesting that wt is willing to fight to the last man standing for a policy that in large part was founded by their biggest apostate.
Hawkaw said:
I know when someone steps in it. I know what its like and how embarassing it can be. I bet the farm Bill has a friggen bag over his head right now. Nothing like shoot your credibility all to hell that you have spent a lot of time building up. . . .I guess you are way better than me and never done anything stupid in your life and that's great and I am glad you can pull it off.
Perhaps a public apology from the one who does the stupid thing would more useful than hiding head in "friggen bag". I've rarely seen it more called for.
~Ros
last night, after my post regarding ray franz comments of bill bowen's posted statements, i received a good number of email and phone calls.
one item consistently surfaced regarding ray's assignment to write the chapter in the book, organization for kingdom preaching and disciple-making, by the title of safeguarding the cleanness of the congregation.
in the chapter, the "two witness" rule was outlined.
In response to Nathan's question about Greenlees, I once asked Ray the question whether Greenlees was resigned because of homosexuality. His response was: "tendencies, tendencies." I then asked him, but no specific incidents? He replied, "No." Not that he had any knowledge of.
~Ros
last night, after my post regarding ray franz comments of bill bowen's posted statements, i received a good number of email and phone calls.
one item consistently surfaced regarding ray's assignment to write the chapter in the book, organization for kingdom preaching and disciple-making, by the title of safeguarding the cleanness of the congregation.
in the chapter, the "two witness" rule was outlined.
Thanks Amazing.
Not that most could not see through the ruse, but thanks.
~Ros
this may have been a topic before on the board.
it would be suprising if anyone else as not thought of this.. with regards to the 5 governing body members who have been named as child abusers.
would ray franz be able to confirm these aligations?
I suppose one could rationalize that Thomas Jefferson is responsible for Satanism and the occult in America because he participated in writing the Constitutional law that guarantees freedom of religion here, and that he would be a key witness to the atrocities committed by some of the cults.
Mr. Bowen, with the help of a lot of friends, has succeeded in getting some publicity about one of the Watchtower's more dispicable characteristics. A lot of publicity among exJWs, but not particularly significant yet on the world scene. Nevertheless, credit and appreciation is due for his efforts.
THAT BEING SAID, doing something good does not give anyone the right to slander another--I don't care who it is. Exaggeration to make a point is ONE thing, but outright slanderous lying public character asassination is quite another. Inexcusable. I'm sad and disillusioned.
J.F. Rutherford was surely among the most vainglorious egotists the world has known, but even he had the humility to admit, to put it in his words, "I made an ass of myself." (That was in reference to his 1925 end prediction.)
Is Ray Great or what? you ask ...
Yes.
last night, my wife zazu, had a stroke.
she is in the hospital, and will be there for a least a week.
she can still think clearly and converse.
Carl:
Please know that my concern, well wishes and prayers join with the others here who have so thoughtfully responded to this awful news. Hoping that with your love and support, and those who care about you, Jan will have a speedy recovery.
~Ros
