Posts by ros

Hojon:
May I ask the source of your statistics?
My adult working life has been spent in high-tech giant corporations, initially in the field of nuclear energy where in some circumstances the PhDs in physics outnumbered the clerical personnel. Many of the physicists and biologists I have worked with theists and some of them are/were Christian. Some are even graduates of Christian universities, including such as the likes of Mormons and Catholic. Very few are absolute atheists--in my personal experience. There are, of course, a significant number of agnostics.
I would say you statistics might be very realistic for scientists vs. fundamentalists.

37

A Somewhat Surprising Letter

by JanH in

jw
friends

commentary press.

box 43532. atlanta, ga 30336-0532.

770/949-4947; fax 770/949-5601; e,mail: [email protected].

ros

Hi, Jan:
Fortunately I'm able to access your post (unlike some including my on this board?).

From what I hear, there have been numerous copyright infringements on Franz's books and also Carl Olof's, and this has been on-going for some time. Badame, on behalf of Commentary Press, has been contacting various sites objecting to these infringements. I took the liberty of asking Ray about your post. He does not recall giving permission for publishing the chapter in question, and he does not have a copy of the letter. Since he cannot find a copy, he asked if you would please send a copy of the permission letter to Commentary Press to clear the matter up for Badame.
(I did tell him you are no longer the host for the material.)

67

Joining

by Daniel in

jw
friends

i want to join the jw family but i am having trouble finding a hall in houston.

do anyone know how i can find one or help me by giving me one in houston.

thanks

ros

Daniel:
Can you swim?

Farkel:
BIG LOL!!! Funny because its true!

4

What Drives exJWs to atheism #2

by ros in

jw
friends

hello, pathothorns, abbadon, and quester!

quester: .

quester .

ros

Sorry, folks. I have a frequent problem of not being able to open certain threads, and now it has happened to my own thread titled "What Drives exJWs to atheism. I have a reply for some, but anyone who posted after a first post by "Quester" I have not been able to see, so if any were addressed to me, I'm not ignoring you, I just didn't see it. Sorry.
Here's my reply to some of the posts up to and including Quester:

===================================
Hello, Pathothorns, Abbadon, and Quester! :

I should explain the reason for my post on this subject. Yesterday I read two threads, one by LDH where the intrusion of never-been-JWs fundies' preaching got sickening-as usual-and a follow-up one from Copernicus trying in vain to reason with them.
In discussing Biblical issues-repeat, "in discussing Biblical issues"-lack of "logic" in dogmatic fundies far-r-r-r exceeds that of JWs-IMO. Notice, however, I am NOT inferring that atheists or agnostics are not logical. I believe in a lot of things-and so do you-that have nothing to do either with logic or religion. It is my understanding that about 49% of scientists believe in a supreme Creator personage. Regarding "logic", scientists (both non-theists and theist) have often come to "logical" conclusions that proved to be flawed because their initial premises were flawed. That is not bad and it does not mean they were not logical. It is accepted as a matter of course in science.
In the sense that you use the term "logic", to me, atheism is not logical-to you it is. Its all in your perception. Timothy McVeigh based his actions on his perceived "logic".

This thread should have had a title more specific to the point I was trying to make. For that I apologize to the atheists here. My main point was the never-been-JW fundies who invariably come on these xJW forums succeed in the opposite of what they intend. They have actually ruined some of our forums.

Pathothorns:

I think of those that leave, most seem to be more comfortable proclaiming themselves to be agnostics as opposed to athiests.

In my view, professed agnosticism is far more "logical" than atheism.
Some atheists are as dogmatic as some fundies. I agree that agnosticism has been the bigger drawing.

I do think this turning people away from belief in God is their greatest crime, since they accomplish the exact opposite of what they set out and claim to do. Although I feel comfortable in saying I don't know anymore.

Exactly my point about fundies.

As much as out of logic, this conclusion for me is a self protection mechanism in that I was led astray once and will do everything possible to prevent it from happening again.

Now THAT is what I consider an honest realization. Enjoyed your reply, Path.

=============================
Abbadon:

I think the fact that there is no god 'drives' many xJW's to becoming atheists.

A perfect example of atheist dogmatism. Thanks for illustrating my point.

I think we both have to accept each others right to decide.

Agree. No question about that.

I do not always see the same level of knowledge of science in xJW theists. Very often they, in addition to having a belief in god, have quite low levels of scientific knowledge or major misconceptions about scienece, often dating from the days when they regarded the 'Creation Book' as a masterpiece of scientific writing.

However, I don't see a significant difference in ACTUAL scientific knowledge among a lot of xJW non-theists either generally speaking; I think that is a misperception that has been promulgated on H2O and now here. Kind of a "if you're an atheist you're more scientifically aware" mentality. It ain't necessarily so. People who REALLY understand science realize that it is not an either/or proposition with religion. Those who believe that it is expose themselves as not really understanding the premise of science, as defined by scientists themselves (not me).

Also, some xJW theists seem to believe that atheists are unhappy, afraid of death, lost, resentful, angry with god, and have no spirituality.

That's what fundies push, too. Its true of some people, but not all. Some professed Christians are unhappy and in denial; most are definitely afraid of death in my observation.
=======================
Quester:

Hey Ros,
GHP2 here, who has oddly become inspired to post on this board lately. :)

Hey, Quester, I'll have to keep your addy in mind. Good to see you surfacing here!

When people mention logic, it always reminds me of the Star Trek character, Spock. He could not understand the simplest things sometimes because he was too logical, too literal. I think there are different kinds of knowing beside logic and if a person relies on logic/facts alone they are limiting themselves.

Precisely my view.

I too considered the jw religion a step up from other traditional literalistic or fanatical Christian religions. From studying modern day Bible scholarship and contemporary writings, I now know that there are other more positive alternatives out there for me. Quester

There SURE ARE! Thanks for your thoughts. The "silent majority" perhaps?

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

ros

H'lo, Jan:

You may be right, I don't know the source of your statistics. I can only say those numbers do not seem to be reflected in these forums.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

ros

rem:

You're not being honest with yourself if you kid yourself that you only believe in what is "logical"--religion aside.
You would be limiting yourself tremendously if you only allowed yourself to believe "logic". The "best things in life" are not logic.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

ros

proplog2:

I have no quarrel (or debate) with you arriving at your conclusion, nor with your difference of opinion about evangelicals. I will just point out that logic does not necessarily equal fact. Logic, in of itself, can be flawed. In that sense, it is sometimes its own brand of "faith".

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

ros

A significant number of former Jehovah's Witnesses come out of the Watchtower still believing the Bible and considering themselves Christians. Most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship. They seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.

What is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism? I realize the answer is varied among individuals and is the perceived logical conclusion derived by a few. But the ONE influencing factor that I have observed to reign supreme over the years, the one at the forefront of driving exJWs away from wanting anything to do with religion, is the convergence on us by never-been-a-JW-"bornagain" evangelicals driven by a schizoid holyspirit mission to preach to exJWs. Why there are so many of them is a mystery. They have been at every one of our conferences, in every xJW forum and on every xJW board, usually in teams, preaching their blind literalistic dogma that makes Jehovah's Witnesses seem mild and rather cognizant by comparison. No doubt these efforts have made a few converts, but by in large the majority of exWitnesses are repelled.

I have no argument with evangelicals having and enjoying their faith. I was a evangelical before I became a JW (for which I am immensely grateful because I was not susceptible when I came out of the Watchtower). Indeed, one of the things that drew me to the Watchtower was the fact that the religion made more sense than fundamentalism. Flawed as WT so-called Biblical intellectualism was, I still consider it was a step up religiously speaking. (Independent-thinking was the next progressive step, and coming out of JWs was the next.)

Some people never tire of debating with trinitarians who never tire of debating. For those who do tire, trust me in this: You get nowhere trying to reason with them. Give up! If you like debating with them fine, to each his/her own; but if you don't, the best thing is to ignore them. You will not change their mind by proving them wrong--they won't see it. As long as you banter with them, they will thrive.

I would like lurking JWs and others to realize--regardless of your own convictions--that these people do NOT represent the Biblical premise of all Christians. To JWs entertaining doubts, that kind of Christianity is NOT the only alternative!
(It goes without saying that some people here do not agree with MY religious convictions either. But I do not impose my convictions on other people. I acknowledge my faith if the discussion warrants it, but I do not hammer it. To my knowledge, I don't know that my beliefs have influenced anyone to lose faith; in fact, the reverse here and there.)

37

Am I Codependent ? Now I'm a Bully?

by Jang in

jw
friends

a couple of people have claimed i am co-dependent ..... a few years back i had to go through this list and do the following: .

codependents frequently:.

ros

Also a very astute point, Tina. VERY true. Human nature. (Why does that term always imply a negative connotation?)
(I've even noticed the tendancy in myself on occasion. )