ros

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Posts by ros

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  82

  Fables, Farces and Facts

  by Farkel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no, this piece is not about alliteration.

  for true believers?

  the subject matter is quite serious, and may just possibly affect the quality of the rest of you lives; it may also affect your eternal fate, if there is such a thing.

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  ros

  jst2laws:

  I see we are quite on the same wave. Very well put. (As I said, I think I am (we are) in some pretty good company. :-)

  Blessings,

  ~Ros
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  82

  Fables, Farces and Facts

  by Farkel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no, this piece is not about alliteration.

  for true believers?

  the subject matter is quite serious, and may just possibly affect the quality of the rest of you lives; it may also affect your eternal fate, if there is such a thing.

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  ros

  Hello,

  Generally, I think (perhaps wrongfully) that these debates are not "fruitful". :-) However, having ended a busy workweek with a WildTurkey and pineapple soda, I'm entertaining a little different mood. Hope I'm not stepping too far out of character. If so, please excuse.

  Wasasister asked, and Farkel asked why no one answered:

  Does not the legitimacy of Jesus Christ as the Son-of-God rely on the veracity of the Bible? If the Bible is not reliable, how can one put faith in the Messiah to whom it points? If the Bible is even occasionally in error, how do we believe what quotations are attributable to Jesus?

  I can only answer for myself as a non-fundamentalist believer (and I think I'm in some pretty good company. :-).
  I think most of these questions and discussions are directed at the absolute bible unscientific literalness that is espoused by fundamentalism, whether mainstream, orthodox, or bornagainism. Based on my personal study, I have a different perspective of the bible and scripture. In my opinion, it is immaterial whether every word of the bible, as an historical record of the Jewish people, is wholly literal, inspired, true, or whether it was a compiled written record of a people, by a people, written from the perspective of the writer(s), or whether much of it is analogical, any of which happened to have the purpose of an underlying spiritual truth from The Creator.

  What historical record does not have error? Does that mean history has no value? Did George Washington chop down a cherry tree and then lie about it? Who cares? Does that story diminish the historical record about George Washington? (I guess that might depend on whether you are French or American. :-)

  So to answer Wasasister's question from my perspective, the legitimacy of Jesus Christ does not rely on the veracity of a whole, entire, flawless, scribe-Catholic-compiled biblical record. Not imo. If we refused to believe anything that is even occasionally in error (e.g., newspapers, magaines, history books, science books, evolution books, the bible, etc. etc.) then we would be without anything to believe except our own personal observation of nature? Quite limited.

  Wasa also asked:

  And finally, did Jesus' own mother, who was the closest and most personal observer of his miraculous birth, believe from the beginning in his ministry? If not, why not?

  How could anyone know that? According to John 2, indications are that she held some kind of faith in his exceptional abilities. However, as a point of speculation on the record, it seems that most of the Jewish people did not comprehend what his (and John the Baptist's) ministry was about, including his apostles while he was alive. Many were looking for a nationalistic messianic deliverer to resore the literal throne of David. (As a point to ponder in the biblical 'story', it occurs to me that Mary must have been chosen to be Jesus mother for the very reason that she was the finance of Joseph, because it is he who would have been the one in royal lineage from King David from whom Jesus would have been the heir to the throne in that culture. Just a thought.)

  Many biblical scholars conclude that when crowds waved, and "Jesus wept", when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt shortly before he was executed, that the crowd was believing he had come to deliver Israel, expecting a literal messiah, and he wept because they did not comprehend.

  To put it in perspective, most mothers don't fully understand their sons and their lives; so why should Jesus' mother be so different (unless you accept the religious pious perspective of everything in the bible record of course)? When I was in Israel about three years ago, our Jewish guide used the account of John 2 as an example of a typical Jewish mother, even though she was expecting something extraordinary. Something like: "Jesus, I ask a little favor. Never mind my pain giving you birth, just a little favor for your mother, make us some wine. Is it so much to ask, for youra mother . . ." :-)

  In my opinion, if you're analytical, you'll never find a viable faith in in the fundamentalist literalist biblical perspective. I think the message is beyond religion. Nevertheless, religion does not prove nor disprove Christianity, nor does science, any more than history books prove or disprove history. But that is not to say you should have no faith in history books. The information is fascinating if you really dig for it. But may be my interest--not necessarily yours. The question is, how far should we judge? Not.

  Jmo,
  ~Ros
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  29

  IS THIS A BELIEVABLE COINCIDENCE?

  by jst2laws in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i had a really unique experience today that i want to share but will have to give you a little of my background first.

  i hope you find it interesting.. .

  teenage years.

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  ros

  Hey, Jst2Laws:

  That's two coincidences I know about you now. Remember when you and Joy2bfree said you hoped to make contact with some long lost JW friends, and I happened to be in correspondence with them? Actually, I've heard several very interesting coincidences with exJWs since I've been on-line.

  Smaaaaal world!

  ~Ros
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  53

  Is Mouthy the coolest 'gran' in the world?

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  i'd have loved to have a gran as cool as mouthy (grace) ... surfing the net and stuff!.

  what do you think?

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  ros

  Hey, Grace--you're too young to be my granny! But I luv ya anyway!

  You have all made my day .. Have to get a bigger hat !!!!! ( sweeled head.

  Is that the hat I brought ya a coupla years ago?

  Blessings,
  ~Ros
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  91

  To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first, simon and other mods, please let this thread run its course for a while.

  if it gets too dicey, then i will move or lock it.

  my goal is not to have a big flame war, but to expose an issue for what it is.

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  ros

  Simon said:

  ... or simply doesn't have any information?!

  Actually, to my knowledge, that is the case. I asked Ray about Greenlees some years ago, as to whether he was dismissed from Bethel, as rumour had it, for being homosexual. Ray said very pointedly, "tendencies . . . tendencies." He indicated no knowledge of any kind of actual sexual misconduct committed by Greenlees at Bethel.

  Ray is very careful about hearsay and gossip. He avoids it. Considering how badly he and his wife have been personally affected by it, one can readily understand why. He is very careful to avoid slander.

  It would seem others might see a lesson from a recent thread here about Ray and a letter supposedly written by Ray objecting to copyright infringement for his Spanish material on the Web. Whether or not it was justified, evidently that letter has been exposed as a fraud.

  ~Ros
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  68

  A Question for Those Who Believe in a Higher Power...

  by Piph in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ...but not necessarily the bible.

  do you pray?

  what do you call him/her?

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  ros

  Hi, Piph:

  I believe in a Creator because for me if is simply impossible not to. To my reasoning, it takes more faith to believe that everything that we see and observe came about from nothing than to believe in a Creator. That's my launching point for faith, not the Bible--as you said. My faith is built on other perceptions and experiences from that root.

  To skeptics, I would ask: How would you describe color to one who is born blind--or even just color blind? How would you describe red to them? If you were born blind, or color blind, would you not believe in color?

  ~Ros
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  103

  Is Having Kids Worth It?

  by Prisca in

  1. social
  2. family

  ok, i'm a single female in her early 30s looking for someone to settle down with.

  i'd like to have kids, but the trouble with dating guys who are over 30 is that by now most have a kid and/or have decided they don't want any/more.

  so i am getting faced with the dilemma of maybe finding that someone special, but he may not want to have kids.

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  ros

  Prisca:

  I never had children and never regretted it. While growing up, I assumed that someday I would have children. When I was grown up, I asked: Does the world need more people? Why do I want to have children? Does the world need *my* offspring? What if I have sons and they grow up to be killed or maimed in wars, get involved with drugs, etc. etc.? Why do I want children?

  When I got married, I simply never came to a time when I actually wanted to go through pregnancy and bring for more people. It just did not seem important for the world to have more people. I saw no particular advantage. Perhaps, if I felt inclined, I would adopt someone who was already here who needed a home if I felt compelled to parent.

  I think the question to ask is: Why do you want children? Are you afraid you will feel unfulfilled as a woman if you don't? I have wondered if that is not something of social "brainwashing" for women.
  
  Think about it. Look around. It's definitely right for some people, not for others imo.

  ~Ros
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  91

  To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first, simon and other mods, please let this thread run its course for a while.

  if it gets too dicey, then i will move or lock it.

  my goal is not to have a big flame war, but to expose an issue for what it is.

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  ros

  Island Woman:

  You stated that you know facts that you are not at liberty to reveal. You stated that SL knows things that he does not feel compelled to reveal. Assuming that Ray knows things that you and Bill and others suggest he must know, is it possible that he is simply, justifiably, in the same situation?

  ~Ros
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  91

  To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first, simon and other mods, please let this thread run its course for a while.

  if it gets too dicey, then i will move or lock it.

  my goal is not to have a big flame war, but to expose an issue for what it is.

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  ros

  Simon said:

  I've seen the kind of character assassination by rumour and insinuation that has gone on in the past and it appears there is an attempt to make some kind of coordinated attack on Ray Franz again. I have my own suspicions as to which 'obsessed character' is behind it and can recognise some of the patterns and language. They have managed to turn Silentlambs almost into an 'anti-Ray' group and isolate them from what should be their main supporters.

  I was thinking the same thing.

  It would be a shame to see even more damage done because of misguided and ill conceived attacks on an old man of 90.

  Numerous references have been made to Ray being 90 in these threads. He's 81.

  Incidently, I first met Bill Bowen at a small "Richard Rawe" exJW conference in a remote little resort town in the U.S. state of Washington. Barbara was there, and while I had previously had some phone and e-mail correspondence with her, I had not met her personally before this small gathering, and it was a genuine pleasure to finally meet. AlanF and Peter Gregerson were there, whom I had known personally for some years. And Venice IT, her parents, and Mulan were there, and it was a pleasure to meet them as well. I had heard of Venice's dad's experience through Ray. And, Pat Garza was there. So all in all, it has turned out to be quite a memorable little get-together.

  A couple months later, I attended the abuse/rape trial of Erica in Ritzville, Washington, also attended by Bill and Barbara. I bought Erica a small toy white lamb on my way to the trial, which everyone thought was so apropo. I shared a motel room with Pat Garza and another exJW lady. I had an opportunity to discuss Pat's story with her at some length at that time.

  Attention for Bill's Silent Lambs efforts were escalating at the time. DateLine filming crews were around us each day, even filming us having dinner at the local restaurant. (I think there were maybe two restaurants in town.) Anticipation was extreme with expectation for what effect this show might have on the Watchtower Society for months before the show finally aired . All this was before Bill came out of his corner against Ray on this board, and on my forum, sometime later.

  During that time, I did not quite jump on the Silent Lambs bandwagon myself. It had nothing to do with not wanting to support victims of child abuse, or anything against Bill. My reasons were different. I had been a CASA volunteer (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for abused children--a national organization of volunteers who, as court-appointed Guardians ad Litem, represent in court children alleged to have been abused. My reluctance at that time before the Bill/Ray episode were that I thought then, and I believe now, that Bill's approach to dealing with the victims of child abuse tends to perpetrate a "victim" mentality that I do not believe is helpful or healing for the victims. I also thought it perpatuated a concept that JW victims were exceptional, rather than addressing the issue of child abuse in the world at large. For that reason, I believe there are much better, healthier and more healing resources for victims of child abuse than solely targeting the Watchtower organization.

  Let me be more clear: I think it is important and commendable to go after the Watchtower organization for what they are guilty of--which is coverup. It is right to expose them for their role in sweeping this, and other kinds of hideous crimes, under the proverbial carpet while claiming to be "The Truth". (I have heard of murders being concealed, by people who know. But certainly child abuse is right up there at the top of dispicability.) BUT, I think the issue of going after the Watchtower organization to expose them for gross negligence and protection of perpetrators should be a separate issue from that of efforts to support victims, survivors, helping them to gain a healthy mental acceptance of their self-worth as human beings. It is wrong, imo, to perpetuate the idea that what happened to them was because they were Jehovah's Witnesses. I think it is not healthful to draw them to seek celebrity status in a group for being a victim of child abuse. I do not support the concept that child abuse is solely a JW issue, although I am all for it being exposed in the Organization. The victims do not have to keep being victims. They need to heal and grow beyond the experience, just as people grow beyond many other kinds of tragedy. And they may need professional attention, as well as love and acceptance, to regain their confidence. It is not good to feed them the concept that they are pitiful survivors. The Silent Lambs movement, imo, focuses too much attention on emotionally charging the victims for being victims. Bringing down the Watchtower would not heal them.

  ~Ros
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  264

  Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

  by ros in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

  the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

  http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

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  ros

  Gamaliel:

  I do see your Hebrew characters, but not Alleymom's.
  I do not have Hebrew or Greek fonts installed, so I thought that is why I didn't see them in Alleymom's posts (they appeared as some other kind of strange characters).

  When I saw your Hebrew, I checked to see if I was mistaken, but I don't have the fonts installed. Yet I see your Hebrew. Now I'm curious.

  Alleymom:
  Are your Hebrew and Greek fonts TrueType or Type1 fonts, or are they from a private font developer?

  Thanks,
  ~Ros