How to argue with a JW who says the org never said the end in 75

by dogon in

i have argued with several jws who are now being trained to deny the org ever said the end in 75, what is your approach?.

Splash

And then as 1975 began, so did the back pedalling.

Audio lecture given in early 1975 by Frederick W. Franz, then Vice President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, California.

18:20 "But the big questions is this "Is this year, 1975, the final year, the last year for the ingathering of the other sheep? Now we're all interested in that.... We found that just like you here, [other brothers] also were interested in this current year of 1975. What does it signify for Gods people? Is it the year, the final year, the last year for the ingathering of the other sheep before the great tribulation breaks and reaches its climax in the battle of the great day of God the almighty at Armageddon? Is this the year which will lead right on into the establishment of the day of the Lord Jesus Christ? Well, how are we to view this year?..."

38:42 "We know it's a critical year, we know we're near something, but we're not saying."

42:54 "Now our enquiries around the world of the brothers as to what they're expecting to occur between now and the end of 1975 has revealed that some are very sanguine about matters in the near future, and they're expecting the great tribulation to occur, and the destruction of Babylon the Great, and the annihilation of all the political systems of this world, and then the binding Satan and his demons and their abyssing, to occur before this year is ended, this year 1975."

44:39 "But, in view of what the scriptures inform us, are we warranted in expecting so much to occur by September the 5th 1975? Does September the 5th at sundown when the year 1976 will begin, lunar time, mean that it is time for the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ to begin? And accordingly, does it mean that we are 6,000 years advanced into the 7th day, the 7th creative day of Jehovah God, his rest day, his Sabbath day? Does it mean that? No!"

___________________________________________

Fred Franz - Assembly Speech in Los Angeles, Feb 1975

8:40 "Now that's all it says about 1900 and 75" (crowd laughs and claps)

"And that's all we can say to John Dark, the religious editor of the Los Angeles Times, or anybody else out there in the world who wants to know what we have published regarding this critical year. We know it's a critical year, we know we're near something! But we're not saying" (Crowd roars with laughter and claps)

___________________________________________

Finally a 21st Century Governing Body member, Stephen Lett, feels it's safe to now admit that they got 1975 wrong! Apparently the Faithful and Discreet Slave are like an overly sensitive smoke detector.

It's revealing how Lett describes the Faithful Slave as 'they' and 'them' instead of 'me' and 'us'.

00:13 "Let's just talk about some of this documented evidence that this is certainly the case. Now it's true that the Faithful Slave, at times, has had wrong expectations throughout the decades..."

00:50 "See, sometimes they've had wrong expectations, for example 1975. Many responsible ones at headquarters, they thought maybe, maybe Jehovah would bring the 1,000 year reign to begin in that year, but of course it didn't happen did it. And we're happy that literally millions have come into the Truth since 1975.... It doesn't mean the Faithful Slave is unfaithful."

1:50 "So at times the Faithful Slave maybe's been like that smoke alarm, although they've learned from their mistakes that you really can't be specific about Jehovah's day."

78

How to argue with a JW who says the org never said the end in 75

by dogon in

i have argued with several jws who are now being trained to deny the org ever said the end in 75, what is your approach?.

Splash

Find these convention recordings online and ask what conclusions are logically drawn:

Spring 1967 Circuit Assembly "God Cannot Lie", Sheboygan Wisconsin
Sunday 5:40pm Charles Sinutko - "Serving With Everlasting Life In View"

2:00 "It almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season because he has held up before all of us a new goal, a new year, something to reach out for and it just seems it's given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that's the year 1975. There's been a lot of talk about the year, in fact even this week some individuals have been wondering, well, what does it mean? Do we dare talk about it? Is it something we can discuss among ourselves even though we might not talk too much about it in public? Do we really know what it means? Well we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower because the WT has been very specific as to what the year 1975 means for us. If you want to write down the page, 262 in the 1967 issue of the WT we read "What does the year 1975 mean for humankind? The end of 6,000 years of human existence and possibly the time when God executes the wicked and starts off a 1,000 year reign under his son Jesus Christ".

6:37 "There's only 8 years until '75. How little time there is left..."

20:11 "There's only one thing that's going to count when that time comes and that's that we are 'inside', and we hope that all of us here tonight are going to listen to the Society's implorings. We're going to listen to their agonizing entreaties "Brothers get in" because they know what's coming. And it's coming fast and don't wait until '75. The door's going to be shut before then."

22:10 "As one brother put it, 'Stay alive 'til '75'. "

________________________________________

November 1968, District Overseer Duggan at the Pampa Texas Assembly

0:01 "So Jehovah's word is in your mouth. This Good News must be preached first, before Armageddon. There is, will be now a remaining few months. Not really a full 83 months remains, so let's be faithful and confident and we will be alive beyond the war of Babylon; we will be alive beyond the war of Armageddon. Yes, brothers and sisters, by doing this, having plenty to do, we will be alive in God's new system of things, to live and to share and to work for a thousand years, and there will be plenty to do for the next 1,000 years."

Note: November 1968 plus "a full 83 months" brings us to October 1975.

________________________________________

1968 BBC interview with Phillip Reece, the Assistant to the Presiding Minister at Watchtower House (UK bethel), discussing 1975

1:50 Journalist: "I challenged him that the threat of a year of doom, 1975, seemed to be a fairly wild and irresponsible surmise."

Philip Reece: "er well, I don't accept your term 'the year of doom 1975', but we don't, erm, put it as a threat. We firmly believe that in the near future this system of things is going to perish, because the Bible plainly says that all the way through it. But, er, we want people to appreciate that it is the prelude to the kingdom of God. You see you sweep away the old before the incoming of the new."

Journalist: "Well if the end does come in '75 will we all be dead?"

Philip Reece: "Yes, er, Armageddon when it comes is going to mean a sweeping away of this system, and the system of things, of course, is built up of individuals. That's why we do not tire of telling the people 'You must now come out of this system of things, Come out of Babylon the Great and take your stand for God's kingdom because that alone is going to survive'. "

Journalist: "What will happen to the rest of the people?"

Phillip Reece: "The rest of the people will perish."

Journalist: "How?"

Philip Reece: "By, erm, the, erm, by the forces of, er, God, just how I don't know, er, I don't know exactly how."

________________________________________

April 15th 1972 Lakeworth Florida
Ulysses V Glass - "Will Your Name be found Written in the Book of Life?"

6:09 "...the end will come when the witnessing has been completed in all the earth. And so they worry a lot about things; "What are you going to do with China, how are you going to get into China, how will you have reached all those people there, how are we ever going to reach them by 1975?, for example.

...It's His word and He knows what He's going to do before He brings the end on this system of things."

________________________________________

May 1972 Floyd Kite - "Are You Marked For Survival?"

52:16 "There are a dozen inexorable forces at work right now that are converging together inside of this decade that will spell disaster for this system of things, and there is nothing that no human can do to prevent it."

________________________________________

1972 "Divine Rulership" District Assembly
Day 4. 4:40 Brother Reese - "Closing Remarks"

15:23 - "We had that advice about 1975, Not changing a thing! Not changing a thing!... We have stronger reason to see that the middle 70's are going to see the complete change in earths affairs."

18

The UN Files - Print Out And Keep For Your Next JW Visitor

by pale.emperor in

i've been researching the wt and the un involvement.

when i was still in and i first seen the un letter online, my cognitive dissonance kicked and i told myself it'll be a fake.

an apostate lie.. and seeing as no jw i've spoken to has ever heard of it, and flatly deny any involvement "no, they wouldn't do that", i decided to do a little "personal study" of my own.

Splash

If the WTBTS were not under obligation by the UN terms to promote the UN, then the Awake 98/11/22 would not contain four articles (pages 3 - 14) full of UN information.

The articles were written in response to the UN requiring all NGO's to publish something relating to the UN's 50 year birthday. http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/sites/50years/
WT complied:

A "long job finished" - Positive appraisal of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
View from the 29th floor - Agreeable interview with a UN 'chief' regarding human rights.
Human Rights and Wrongs today - Discusses UN Articles 1, 4, 18, 23 and 25 in a supportive way.
Human Rights for all, A Worldwide Reality - More UN quotations and blurring it with the Bible.

Bear in mind that the UN is the demonic organisation from Revelation - Jehovah's nemesis!!

This link has another UN NGO summary pdf (not mine), as a good refutation of the 'jehovahsjudgement' article.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/99gqtr

So how is the WT not getting involved with the harlot riding the UN's back?

10

charities commission in the UK

by zeb in

i am writing to ask for your help in progressing our inquiries into the watch tower bible and tract society of britain.

as you may already know, our work is divided into two parts.

one is an inquiry into the charity’s policy and practices on safeguarding children and adults who are vulnerable.

Splash

This wt article suggests that domestic abuse victims are partly responsible for their being beaten.

w12 2/15 p. 29 par. 12 Happiness Is Possible in a Divided Household

"The night before, Steve had hit me as I had tried to prove a point, and I was feeling sad and sorry for myself... Realizing that I needed to adjust my thinking, I prayed to Jehovah to help me be more loving toward Steve"

38

2016-07-15 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN RUSSIA New law on missionary activity

by wifibandit in

2016-07-15 to all bodies of elders in russia re: new law on missionary activity.

translation:.

to all bodies of elders in russia new law on missionary activity.

Splash

FIELD SERVICE IS VOLUNTARY AND PUBLISHERS DO NOT REPRESENT THE WTBTS

You are first interviewed: Organized to do Jehovah's Will book p.79

"The presiding overseer will arrange to have two elders (one being a member of the congregation service committee) discuss the matter with you and the bible student."

You must qualify: Organized to do Jehovah's Will book page 81

"Once the elders determine that the bible student qualifies to engage in the field ministry, he is eligible to receive his own copy of Organized to do Jehovah's will book"

The WT has minimum requirements to meet: Organized to do Jehovah's Will book page 87

"Auxiliary, regular, and special pioneers as well as missionaries have hour requirements to meet. Congregation publishers are likewise encouraged to put the Kingdom interest first and exert themselves in the ministry to accomplish all that they can in the field according to their circumstances"

The WT has rules to cater for exceptions: Organized to do Jehovah's Will book page 87

"Time spent in the field service should be reported in full hours. An exception to this is made when a publisher is very limited because of advanced age, is shut in , is confined to a nursing home, or is otherwise incapacitated. Such a publisher may report field service in 15-minute increments rather than in the full hours. Even if he gives a witness for just 15 minutes during a month, He should report this time so that he can continue to be counted as a regular Kingdom Publisher"

The WT's elders uphold the rules: Organized to do Jehovah's Will Book page 87

"This provision is made, however, only for those who are very limited in their activity. The congregation service committee will determine whether a publisher qualifies for this arrangement. "

The WT train you: km 3/04 p. 4 par. 3 A Cavalry Charge That Involves You

By means of the Theocratic Ministry School and other congregation meetings, God's ministers have been trained to speak God's message with authority.

And equip you: km 3/04 p. 4 par. 6 A Cavalry Charge That Involves You

Trained, well equipped to deliver God's message, and working under angelic direction, Jehovah's people are an irresistible force. Let us continue to play our part in the fulfillment of this thrilling prophetic vision.

And organise you: km 7/12 p. 5 par. 4 Before Preaching, You May Need to Search

the body of elders, particularly the service overseer, should organize and oversee the search work

And tell you what to wear: km 3/96 p. 3 par. 6 Preparation—Key to Success

In addition to preparing and practicing your presentation, you should also ask yourself, 'Is the clothing that I plan to wear suitable for the ministry?'

Then you must report back to the WT: Organized to do Jehovah's Will book page 86

"It is important to submit an accurate report of Hours in field Service."

BUT you are not representatives: km 2/89 pp. 3-4 Our Identification as Jehovah's Witnesses

Therefore, publishers do well to avoid representing themselves as agents or representatives of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., or any other corporation used by "the faithful and discreet slave" to advance Kingdom interests.—Matt. 24:45-47... If any publishers use a personal name card in connection with their field service activities, they should not print thereon that they are representatives of the Watchtower Society.

You are on your own and are personally liable: BoE letter July 15 2014 Para. 4

Any application to use a mobile cart or to set up a table or kiosk to display literature must be filled out in the name of an individual publisher, not in the name of the congregation, any corporation used by the organization, or "Jehovah's Witnesses." If a small administrative fee is needed in order to acquire space in a public area, it is to be paid by the individual publisher, not the congregation. Publishers should carefully review any such applications to see what responsibility they are taking upon themselves with respect to liability. Publishers who apply to distribute literature at these areas are doing so on their own initiative as part of their personal ministry.

43

At a regional convention today....

by Nobodyspecial in

jw
friends

it really stands out to me just how phoney the bonds of forced brotherhood are.

the smiles are paper thin when they see each other in hotels.

the laughs forced.

Splash

Not even one attendant would help!!??

Shocking!

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

Splash

Could it be that Leo Greenlees or Ewart Chitty (both ex-GB members) are on that list?

24

If An Organization Really Believed It Had the Truth...

by xjwsrock in

....it would not be scared of critics.

actually they would naturally take an offensive stance, wouldn't they?

they would welcome debate... even encourage it.

Splash

w1930 9/1 p.267 Par.1

Those who have God's truth never persecute. The truth does not need such a defense. It is only error that seeks by persecution, threats and death to silence those who oppose it. Any cause that has to be supported by persecution, threats, or tyranny and lies, is of Satan and does not have divine approval, and is always in opposition to God's truth.

61

Did others experience this on the ministry or among JWs generally?

by slimboyfat in

sometimes it's hard to know if our own experience of jws was typical and what features were peculiar to our own area or the individual jws we knew personally.

i was wondering if others experienced this among jws:.

a few times on the ministry, when we were working wealthy areas with large houses, some brothers and sisters would make the comment that they look forward to taking ownership of one of these big houses after armageddon, when the worldly people have vacated them.

Splash

Well, the WT has made the ministry sound so appealing:

*** w55 1/15 p. 63 Group Witnessing in Mountainous Italy ***
Could one conceive of the average Roman Catholic congregation in Italy having one out of four able to give Bible lectures or sermons and all of its members starting out at six in the morning for the purpose of spending the day trudging from house to house talking religion?

That just about sums it up.
No wonder they have to fantasize about living a happy life in someone else's house.

49

Bethel "Vow of Poverty" documents scanned.

by What-A-Coincidence in

jw
friends

vow of poverty scanned from 2002 documents.

i believe these are the latest ones unless someone has a newer one.

i posted these in another thread but i thought it deserved its own.. ocrd with 98% accuracy.... initial cover page 1 of 4. vow of obedience and povertyto the.

Splash

*** w82 8/15 p. 15 Insight on the News ***

Ministers or Tax Evaders?

The New York Supreme Court ruled that the Life Science Church has “defrauded the public...” and must return the money it collected. ... According to the New York Times report, “the church had run dozens of seminars and collected approximately $20 million in fees from people who became ministers to avoid paying Federal and state taxes.”

Individuals were told that they could keep on with their secular employment yet be tax free by starting their own church chartered by the Life Science Church. They could then either donate up to 50 percent of their earnings to the church and substantially reduce their taxes or take a vow of poverty and give all their earnings and property to the church. The church would then pay all expenses and the individual would be tax exempt, it was claimed. The court rejected such argument. “The ruling,” said Daniel Kurtz of the state attorney general’s office, “would encourage the state to pursue other organizations and individuals seeking tax exemption under the guise of religion.”

True Christians would not want to take deductions that are not allowed by their governments (as ministers or otherwise), but as Romans 13:7 counsels they will render to “him who calls for the tax, the tax.” They do not use their ministry as a means for evading taxes.

Splash

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