Posts by konceptual99

52

The Field Service will end someday, maybe?

by Quarterback in

jw
friends

last month i heard a talk from a c.o.

he mentioned that the door to door service will come to an end.

he said that jehovah will tell us to stop it, eventually.

konceptual99

@the-illuminator81 - I would agree that any changes would be slowly introduced but I really don't see it reaching a point where field service as we know it now, even D2D, is brought so low as to be meaningless.

The society is fixated on reporting and numbers - we just had a heavy talk on why reporting is so important. The points I may already, especially, about it being a spiritual barometer and touted as a major identifying mark are well intrenched and would need years and years to turn around.

I'm not sure if the elders would be the first to be released either. Visibility on the D2D is a major factor for judging an appointed man's qualifications and the publishers pick up on any perceived hypocrisy in this area real quickly. I've used the fact that no elders were regular in Sunday service to counter elders trying to make me feel guilty about not doing it. If the elders stopped 99% of the cong would stop.

At congregational level they are still really hot on this "congregation average" thing for appointed men - even though it cannot be found in scripture or even the publications.

I think the only thing that counters the argument on reporting is the fact that in the western countries there is a decrease in many areas. The memorial attendence was down again this year in the UK and peaks in publishers and hours are artifically spiked with the 30 hour special. It is feasible that constant reductions in numbers may not be reported but I think it more likely to be spun as "love of the great number cooling off" and it actually being used to "prove" the end is nearer.

At the end of the day the society is a publishing club. It need members and it needs to constantly recruit to keep the spons in the coffers.

52

The Field Service will end someday, maybe?

by Quarterback in

jw
friends

last month i heard a talk from a c.o.

he mentioned that the door to door service will come to an end.

he said that jehovah will tell us to stop it, eventually.

konceptual99

I can't see that FS will end.

1 - It's such a big part of the activity of witness and is used as a measure of spirituality.

2 - To reduce the preaching work would counter the use of "this good news of kingdom" as a sign we are in the last days

3 - It creates a difference with pretty much all other religions and is therefore used as an identifying mark of the "true" religion

4 - To annonuce a complete end will say Armageddon is iminent and that would be organisational suicide unless they really knew something we didn't

5 - It would mean the videos and pictures in the magazines showing 1st C Christians going round with a bag and scrolls D2D would be out of date

I think the more likely scenario is that the form of the work may change. We are seeing a move to online only material, the size of the magazines is decreasing and there are now at least two leaflet campaigns per year (memorial, convention) with the possibility of ad hoc ones as well (e.g. the Truth leaflet one). The memorial one is now tied in with the reduce aux hours effort.

Interestingly enough the first year (2011) of the 30 hours aux pioneer effort was very well supported (approx 40-50% of publishers in pretty much every congregation I knew). 2012 was a different story - far less support, around 30% less in our cong and similar figures locally with much less "buzz".

The society are downsizing and reducing costs. The above mentioned changes as well as the move to picking up what mags you need as and when suggest they are much more concerned about reducing waste and costs.

There has also been much more emphasis from COs to place books. My experience has been that the CO is measuring out FS activity on the basis of book placements. This does reflect the chance of getting Bible studies as no one comes into the truth on the basis of WT/A only (or, God forbid, just a pure Bible study), but I think also suggests that perhaps the role of the magazines may be reduced as well. It's cheaper to print a leaflet, get a mass distribution campaign and then follow up interest with a book for example.

There was also this in the recent WT 5/15 p20

15 Continuing in the Kingdom-preaching work in these last days re-quires faith in Jehovah’s timing. The changing world situation may call for some changes in how the disciple-making work is carried on. The organization may occasionally make adjustments to address the needs of our activity as Kingdom proclaimers. We demonstrate faith in the God of “times and seasons” by fully cooperating with such adjustments as we serve loyally un-der his Son, the “head of the congrega-tion.”—Eph. 5:23.

Q 15. How can we show faith with regard to orgaizational adjustments?

This may be referring to the changes already made and general things like promoting studies on the first saturday of the month etc. It could also be laying a foundation for changes to come.

Anyways, it's all just speculation but I really don't see them turning around and saying don't bother going D2D, don't bother churning out forests anf forests of literature, just speak to people informally, use your bible and be a good example...

What really is a possibilty is that the effort to reduce costs the public WT/A will all but disappear as far as the FS is concerned. We will be told to do leaflet campaigns and follow up with books to get straight to the point about bible studies, stopping all these route calls and cozy magazine drops. Net result - less cost, more targeted recruitment drive. I can't imagine that pioneers will be happy - trying to do 70 hours of first call again!

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

konceptual99

Does a birthday count as a holiday that directly involves false religion?

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

konceptual99

Hi Sauerkraut,

You're absolutely right, I don't have to comply and at some point I probably won't. The reality is though that a confrontation could happen at some point when it is not convienient to me (specifically when my wife and family are not ready to easily accept the situation) and then the interactions with the elders becomes a game. I know how to play the game on thing like field service, reporting, qualifications etc. but with something like this there is a very fine line between a situation where you are still accepted and one where you are in an escalating confrontation that can end up in disfellowshipping before you know it and can control it. It is sill a game however and I am looking for strategies on how to play.

You are also right about speaking out to anyone and I am taking care with that. What may start to force issues however is if I come off as an MS or my meeting attendance/fs participation gives cause for concern. At the moment remaining an MS prevents alot of questions but my conscience on this may change at some point in the future.

Who knows, I may at some point just go "what the heck"!

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

konceptual99

Ahha... good references @irondork - I've not gone through all the references on this so not looked at those ones yet.

My point about "firm" is not so much that it makes it firm in my mind but that 1 Jo 2:18,19 when looked at in isolation does make a link that is hard to argue against.....until.....you look at other references such as the ones you've mentioned.

These do show that it's recognising the Christ that is key. That's all well and good until you decide that you turn into an athiest ;-)

Thanks for the info!

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

konceptual99

I can understand the logic of not even bothering trying to reason but I may have to.

The underlying purpose of the question is that if I continue to question my faith then I am going to have to do something about it and that will eventually involve the elders. I want to keep them off my back for as long as possible, especially as I have to consider my wife and kids. I've always found that a combination of weak reasoning along with procedural naivety has meant previous encounters with the elders over things like my qualifications as an MS have never amounted to much but when it comes to the dreaded apostacy then the gloves very quickly come off.

I am just interested to know if the magins of what the society has defined as apostacy and it's relationship to the antichrist has broaded over the past 20-30 years or if RF's experience was just down to some weaknesses on the part of the elders. The route I am going means I may full well have to answer a charge at some point and if it happened too soon then it would be really powerful to use arguments that would keep me on the "doubter to be helped" as opposed to "traitor" side of the line.

30

Crisis of Conscience, Apostacy and the Antichrist

by konceptual99 in

i've just finished reading coc and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.. one thing that has struck me is the way rf was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the jc.

a key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 cor 9. apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.. i thought the reasoning was really sound but i have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist.

characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:.

konceptual99

I've just finished reading CoC and it's truely a thought provoking book that's given me much to think about.

One thing that has struck me is the way RF was disfellowshipped and how he tried to reason with the elders on the JC. A key point of reasoning was that how the elders could define the disassocated one he ate with as "the antichrist" or one practicing the things described in 1 Cor 9. Apparently the elders either remain silent on the matter or said it was not for them to judge.

I thought the reasoning was really sound but I have been doing some checking on the definition of apostacy and the antichrist according to the society and it seems pretty clear to me that anyone guilt of apostacy becomes part of the antichrist. Characteristics of apostacy as defined in the it-1 book are described as follows:

Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Heb 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Heb 10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2Pe 2:15-22), the heeding of the “counterfeit words” of false teachers and “misleading inspired utterances” (2Pe 2:1-3; 1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 2:16-19; compare Pr 11:9), and trying “to be declared righteous by means of law” (Ga 5:2-4). While still making profession of faith in God’s Word, apostates may forsake his service by treating lightly the preaching and teaching work that he assigned to followers of Jesus Christ. (Lu 6:46; Mt 24:14; 28:19, 20) They may also claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization, and then turn to ‘beating’ their former associates to hinder their work. (Jude 8, 11; Nu 16:19-21; Mt 24:45-51) Apostates often seek to make others their followers. (Ac 20:30; 2Pe 2:1, 3)

It then goes right on to say:

Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the “antichrist.” (1Jo 2:18, 19)

So that firmly lumps the two together thus any similar reasoning to that offered by RF can be easily rebuffed, especially since the 1 Jo 2:18 & 19 link the antichrist with those that "went out from us".

Clearly the John scripture was there all the time so I am wondering if application of aposates and the antichrist has changed over the years or if it's just that the elders in RF's case were a bit slow to use the scriptures? I appreciate that the whole perspective of the antichrist, apostacy and so on will be different amongst people rigidly following the society's line as opposed to those seeking to follow a less judgemental path but since it's not actually that difficult to be branded an apostate it would be really interesting to know if there are any strategies for questioning things and expressing doubts that reduce the risk?

51

District Convention Points Saturday 21-07-2012 New Light? Governing Body Is Our Mother?

by Bubblegum Apotheosis in

i have been trying to wrap my head around the talk that introduced the slave as our mother?

the brothers at bethel are worried that we are not treating our spiritual mother with respect.

jehovah is our father, the faithful slave (the governing body) is our spiritual mammy.

konceptual99

@rather... just seen your msg. I have no idea about 3 day/2 day DCs. I've only heard any mention of this on this board and not from any active witnesses. At the assembly I recently attended the final speaker strongly suggested the convention would be back at the same venue next year but that's all. The only rumour I've heard about the convention I attend is that next year it will be bigger because of taking in more circuits that currently attend another venue, suggesting that there will be at least one less venue. Not that bothered TBH as I'm not sure if I will be going to next years shindig.

16

How many doubting Thomases?

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

as an active witness atm i speak reguarly with friends and family who are also active.

it seems however that there are some things that people are comfortable discussing such as beards (whats the problem) and birthdays (everyone would if they could) and, if you are with close friends, things like confusion over the generations, pressure of keeping all the balls juggled, harshness of rules around da/df ones along with long lapsed family and to some extent blood.. my guess is that there are many more who may be in a similar state of mind to me and wondering if it really is all worth it.

it makes me wonder about how many with express themselves more if they could?

konceptual99

@Black Sheep - TBH I'm not really interesting in causing damage - it's my faith and beliefs I am worried about and what effect any major shift in those may have on my family. If anything I want to minimise the damage. Having said that the point about being in good standing is well made. I have considered coming off as an MS but it actually makes my questioning easier as the red flags are not up.

@baltar447 - I'd not seen that thread so thanks for the pointer. Everything it said was true. Interestingly enough we were with some friends today and the topic of these grab bags came up. People are losing the plot and going mad buying complete survival kits, loading up with all sorts of junk. We've been waiting so long for something to happen the mere mention of some sensible precautionary advice and everyone is running around like headless chickens imagining all sorts of scenarios and speculating wildly on what the society really does know and what could be in store for us around the corner.

I've no idea if that's what the society wanted 'cos when I heard the letter it sounded pretty sensible, but the sense of urgency and expectation it's generating is remarkable.

51

District Convention Points Saturday 21-07-2012 New Light? Governing Body Is Our Mother?

by Bubblegum Apotheosis in

i have been trying to wrap my head around the talk that introduced the slave as our mother?

the brothers at bethel are worried that we are not treating our spiritual mother with respect.

jehovah is our father, the faithful slave (the governing body) is our spiritual mammy.

konceptual99

It's not a new teaching. I know one old boy who uses the phrase "listen to mother" reguarly to refer to following exactly what the society has to say.