I'd never say never but it's been a major part of critical doctrine for so long I really can't see an easy reversal. The new F&DS understanding still shows that Jesus inspected in 1919 and I suspect that they can only justify this on the basis of the end of the gentile times etc. There is so much that would need changing I can't see it happening. But then again I am not the one trying to maintain a crumbling cult...
konceptual99
JoinedPosts by konceptual99
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59
Do you think the WTS is about to change the doctrine about 1914? If so, what are the signs that is under way?
by EdenOne inwhat the title says.
do you think the wts doctrine that says that christ was made king in 1914 is about to change?
if you think that's being orchestrated and prepared, do you see signs of that already?
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Some thoughts on the recent BOE letter
by konceptual99 inwith all the recent efforts by the society to stifle publication of their recent boe letter i have been re-reading it and thinking again about some of the consequences of what this letter really means.. i've had some thoughts so am just throwing them out there to see what the rest of you might think.. firstly, i have absolutely no truck with the core issue regarding the lack of disclosure to the authorities when child abuse is suspected or alledged.
although there are very good reasons for the biblical precedant regarding two or more witnesses this really cannot be forced to apply to this issue.
in the time of the mosaic law, the "elders" were the top level of authority - they were the police, judge and jury - responsible for civil, criminal and spiritual matters.
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konceptual99
Sorry punk,
Slight misunderstanding. I've not spoken to elders. Just saying that if I was to ask an elder if there are any pedos he would not be able to tell me as there is no instruction in the BOE letter that allows for this in the case of a "known child molester" being in the cong, only a "predator".
And we all know what happens to elders who do things differently to their instructions...
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24
Some thoughts on the recent BOE letter
by konceptual99 inwith all the recent efforts by the society to stifle publication of their recent boe letter i have been re-reading it and thinking again about some of the consequences of what this letter really means.. i've had some thoughts so am just throwing them out there to see what the rest of you might think.. firstly, i have absolutely no truck with the core issue regarding the lack of disclosure to the authorities when child abuse is suspected or alledged.
although there are very good reasons for the biblical precedant regarding two or more witnesses this really cannot be forced to apply to this issue.
in the time of the mosaic law, the "elders" were the top level of authority - they were the police, judge and jury - responsible for civil, criminal and spiritual matters.
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konceptual99
Yup...
At the moment I can be sure there are no "predators" as defined by the "experts" in London in my cong 'cos no elder has come to warn me to keep my kids away from Bro. Pedo. What I don't know is if there are any people with convictions or even strong accusations against them. I don't know if there are any "known child molesters".
The way the society is instructing the BOE means that if I asked then the elders would not be able to tell me. If one grew a pair and did tell me then they could lose their office for going against the instructions from above.
No danger there then...
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24
Some thoughts on the recent BOE letter
by konceptual99 inwith all the recent efforts by the society to stifle publication of their recent boe letter i have been re-reading it and thinking again about some of the consequences of what this letter really means.. i've had some thoughts so am just throwing them out there to see what the rest of you might think.. firstly, i have absolutely no truck with the core issue regarding the lack of disclosure to the authorities when child abuse is suspected or alledged.
although there are very good reasons for the biblical precedant regarding two or more witnesses this really cannot be forced to apply to this issue.
in the time of the mosaic law, the "elders" were the top level of authority - they were the police, judge and jury - responsible for civil, criminal and spiritual matters.
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konceptual99
The BOE letter allows for this information to be passed in the case that an individual is identified as a "predator".
There are loads of glaring holes in this. The branch office will decide who is a predator. They may define the person as a "known child molester" which does not appear to require parents are notified. They may not define an individual as either. This allows for a potentially convicted pedophile to be in the congregation unknown to parents and with no real restrictions on what they do or how they may be percieved by the brothers.
A known sex offender may only be spoken to by the elders...
"strongly cautioning them to refrain from displaying affection for children, to avoid hugging or holding children on their lap, never to be alone with a child (other than their own), not to allow children to spend the night in their home, not to work alone in field service (hence, they should always be accompanied by another adult), and not to cultivate friendships with children."
So what about their own children? What if the pedo ignores them? EDIT - Them being the elders - i.e. ignores the "counsel"
A pedo could still be appointed.
"It cannot be said in every case that one who has sexually abused a child could never qualify for privileges of service in the congregation. However, the elders will certainly want to be very cautious, especially when dealing with one who had repeatedly engaged in this kind of wrongdoing or who had been disfellowshipped for such an offense."
There is more context on this in the letter which suggests that a convicted pedo would not be irrephensible in the community and therefore would not qualify but they way it's worded sends a very different message and is not along the lines of "never except in an absolutely exceptional circumstance". I would post more but don't want to cause any (C) issues....
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24
Some thoughts on the recent BOE letter
by konceptual99 inwith all the recent efforts by the society to stifle publication of their recent boe letter i have been re-reading it and thinking again about some of the consequences of what this letter really means.. i've had some thoughts so am just throwing them out there to see what the rest of you might think.. firstly, i have absolutely no truck with the core issue regarding the lack of disclosure to the authorities when child abuse is suspected or alledged.
although there are very good reasons for the biblical precedant regarding two or more witnesses this really cannot be forced to apply to this issue.
in the time of the mosaic law, the "elders" were the top level of authority - they were the police, judge and jury - responsible for civil, criminal and spiritual matters.
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konceptual99
yy2
Got to agree that there is none so wicked as a child abuser and from that perspective have no issue with them being disfellowshipped. I also agree they cannot be trusted. I also agree that the elders are not qualified to read hearts or make a judgement on true repentance - in fact there is very little confidence that someone who has been an offender would not reoffend given enough opportunity.
Given that, does that mean that a child molester can never be reinstated? Is it possible for them to be repentant even though they pose a risk? Is it acceptable for them to be let back into the congregation and managed so as to minimise the risk or is it better never to let them back in? Can there be any scope for forgiveness and mercy in this or have they crossed the line and committed "the unforgivable sin"?
Can a pedophille ever come into the congregation in the same way a gay person or alcoholic can be a Witness just so long as they control their behaviour to meet the standards set by the congregation? I am, of course, not equating any of these or suggesting being gay is like having a sickness like alcholism - I hope you get my point!
If you believe that it is up to God to judge and that forgiveness is open to all then do you have to accept that there could be ones in the congregation that might pose a threat to your children? Can the congregation and parents really monitor these ones or do you take the safest course of action and say no pedo can be a Witness?
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24
Some thoughts on the recent BOE letter
by konceptual99 inwith all the recent efforts by the society to stifle publication of their recent boe letter i have been re-reading it and thinking again about some of the consequences of what this letter really means.. i've had some thoughts so am just throwing them out there to see what the rest of you might think.. firstly, i have absolutely no truck with the core issue regarding the lack of disclosure to the authorities when child abuse is suspected or alledged.
although there are very good reasons for the biblical precedant regarding two or more witnesses this really cannot be forced to apply to this issue.
in the time of the mosaic law, the "elders" were the top level of authority - they were the police, judge and jury - responsible for civil, criminal and spiritual matters.
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konceptual99
Eden,
Interesting point on the blood issue. You are correct that it's an auto DA (assuming you cannot prove repentance). I would argue that it's not the same as disfellowshipping as it's seen as a individual led action rather than congregational but the end result is the same so I can see your point. I am looking at DFing in the context of how I beleive it should be implemented and not how it actually is. There is no doubt that people are DFed to set an example, because they are not showing enough "godly repentance" and to punish as opposed to purely as a protection for the congregation from a devisive influence. That's a wider debate altogether though.
In this context, I wouldn't really take real issue with a pedo being thrown out - I don't have any sympathy. I would agree 100% that if they were found guilty they should never hold any office. I don't think that is harsh at all as evidence shows that many peodophiles are repeat offenders. The only exception to prove the rule would be some allowance for common sense in the tiny, tiny minority of cases where the offender may only be classed as pedophille in a legal sense - I hate to put it like that but I think you know what I mean. I think the law in the UK allows for some common sense in these scenarios as well so it is unlikely, for example, that a 15 year old boy would be forced to sign the sex offenders register if he had sex with another 15 year old.
You are also quite right to bring it back to the victim. I guess, seeing the congregation taking firm, consistent and transparent action may provide a modicum of comfort that the offender and their behaviour will not be tolerated. I am not sure how a victim would cope with their attacker being reinstated though.
Can'tleave,
You are correct that there are people that are too trusting and get hoodwinked by the "spiritual paradise" booshee and I am not absolving the congregation/society of any responsibility. All I am saying is that despite any best endevours these type of sickos are deviant and deceptive to the point of being able to hide in all parts of society. The org could do a lot more to prevent things but ultimately parents cannot be blind to the possiblity that someone in the congregation could be an abuser and that the org's half baked policy provides only limited protection.
The other frightening thing about child abuse is that it is often someone in the close or extended family that is the abuser so a parent's guard needs to be up at all times.
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A picture so outrageous, it deserves its own thread...
by cedars ini mean no disrespect to sd-7 or his fine thread on which this picture has already featured, but i think it is just so ridiculous that it deserves a thread all of its own.. lurkers and apologists, this is how your precious organization views itself.... behold the madness.... .
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cedars.
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konceptual99
Hey Alan,
Is there a meeting in Feb? They have just had one over Christmas? Is this another one or just different dates?
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CO Disfellowshipped in UK
by konceptual99 inso, i have it on very good authority that a co has recently been disfellowshipped in the uk.
he has just finished serving the north west london area.
i don't know any details but perhaps there is someone who does know what happened.
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konceptual99
Just to add that I don't think that the CO I am talking about is Colin Bird.
The CO was only recently DFed and the circumstances that I have heard differ from the account above.
I don't have a name yet but will do my best to get a name. Please bear with me as I will only post when I know and I don't talk that often to the source that I would trust 100%.
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183
What are your favourite movie lines/quotes????
by karter in''well there's one thing you got ta ask yourself punk....you felling lucky...well do ya punk".....clint eastwood dirty harry.. "it's life jim but not as we know it" capt kirk star treck..
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konceptual99
Jay Cartwright: Don't you know about foreign police? They take you up a hill, beat you up and then they bum you!
Neil Sutherland: Yeah. and if they don't kill you, you kill yourself because of the shame of you getting a boner whilst you was being bummed!
The Inbetweeners Movie (sorry for the rudeness...)
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183
What are your favourite movie lines/quotes????
by karter in''well there's one thing you got ta ask yourself punk....you felling lucky...well do ya punk".....clint eastwood dirty harry.. "it's life jim but not as we know it" capt kirk star treck..
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konceptual99
This is my rifle. This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Without my rifle, I am nothing. Without my rifle, I am nothing. Without me, my rifle is nothing.
Jarhead
In fact pretty much the whole Jarhead script....