hey i've been reading the magazine "should you believe in the trinity" - very well laid out and i know its been around for years.. i'm struggling with this whole issue and have looked at some of the quotes and they don't seem to match the actual quotes of the early church fathers.
mainly the one by tertullian which reads as follows from the magazine.
tertullian, who died about 230 c.e., taught the supremacy of god.
This is something that I have been trying to look into as well. I'm currently unsure of whether I believe in the trinity or not. Here are a couple of links that may help you:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19020&site=3
http://www.gospeldefense.org/pdfs/a004.pdf
These are in defense of the trinity. I can also give you scripture to refute the belief, as well.
Best of luck...
sadie
my son (who's 15) came home from the meeting last night (he thinks he wants to be a witness, but that's in another thread) and said that his grandmother (my mother-in-law) told him my reason for not going to meetings (the un thing, also discussed in another thread).
he told me that i need to talk to the po about it as he had heard about it a while back and has some information.. hmmmm, me thinks the mom-in-law has been talking to the po about what i told her last week.
i'm sure that i will be getting a shepherding call (a drop-by, unscheduled visit) by him this weekend.
Hi TweetieBird,
I just had to post the last paragraph of the second article that AlanF mentioned in the Sept 8, 1991 issue of Awake!. The title of the article is "The United Nations-A Better Way?" pg 8:
Jehovah's Witnesses firmly believe that the United Nations is going to play a major role in world events in the very near future. No doubt these developments will be very exciting. And the results will have a far-reaching impact on your life. We urge you to ask Jehovah's Witnesses in your neighborhood for more details on this matter. The Bible clearly paints a picture showing that the United Nations will very shortly be given power and authority. The UN will then do some very astonishing things that may well amaze you. And you will be thrilled to learn that there is yet a better way near at hand that will surely bring eternal peace and security!
Well, Good luck!
sadie
my son (who's 15) came home from the meeting last night (he thinks he wants to be a witness, but that's in another thread) and said that his grandmother (my mother-in-law) told him my reason for not going to meetings (the un thing, also discussed in another thread).
he told me that i need to talk to the po about it as he had heard about it a while back and has some information.. hmmmm, me thinks the mom-in-law has been talking to the po about what i told her last week.
i'm sure that i will be getting a shepherding call (a drop-by, unscheduled visit) by him this weekend.
AlanF says:
In 1991 there appeared in Awake! an article about the UN that appeared to non-JWs to be praising the UN and its goals.
Do you happen to know what month in '91 this article appeared?
thanks
sadie
check out the form for disfellowshipping and disassociation, u.k. style.
disfellowship your neighbor, boss or whatever by filling out the form!.
net soup.
Notice where it states:
The Decision:
k. Were SOCIETY guidelines followed in determining whether repentance existed?
...Shouldn't this read "Were BIBLICAL guidelines followed in determining whether repentance existed?"
I guess we know who really runs the show!
sadie
my son (who's 15) came home from the meeting last night (he thinks he wants to be a witness, but that's in another thread) and said that his grandmother (my mother-in-law) told him my reason for not going to meetings (the un thing, also discussed in another thread).
he told me that i need to talk to the po about it as he had heard about it a while back and has some information.. hmmmm, me thinks the mom-in-law has been talking to the po about what i told her last week.
i'm sure that i will be getting a shepherding call (a drop-by, unscheduled visit) by him this weekend.
Funny...SpinDoctor has just reiterated the same exact response that I got when I confronted an elder at the local KH. That's odd...do they practice that little spill or in is it engrained into their heads to make excuses for the org??? I hear practice makes perfect.
Sadly and honestly, I think it would be a waste of your breath to try and convince them that the WTS has done something wrong. I agree with what Mum said.
good luck
sadie
cyberguy posted on sept 16:.
today's watchtower lesson instructs witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to bible understanding:.
augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par.
Hiya JT,
Thanks...I always thought I was pretty special .
Here are a few other ones that I have found that may help you out:
Watchtower; 2-15-79; pg 20 para 18:
18 In a world where people are tossed about by confusing winds of religious doctrine, Jehovah's people need to be stable, full-grown Christians. (Eph. 4:13, 14) Their position must be steadfast, not shifting quickly because of independent thinking or emotional pressures. (Col. 1:23; 2:6, 7)
Watchtower; 1-15-83; pg 22 para 21:
21 How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.
Watchtower; 1-15-83; pg 27 para 19:
19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?
Watchtower; 9-15-89; pg 23 para 13:
13 In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: "The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead." But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God's organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us.
sadie
cyberguy posted on sept 16:.
today's watchtower lesson instructs witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to bible understanding:.
augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par.
Cyberguy posted on Sept 16:
Today's Watchtower lesson instructs Witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to Bible understanding:Well, I was just a lurker back on Sept 16 and I passed this little goodie by. I just have (in the last few mins) posted a response to it but I'm sure that it will not be in the active topics very long and I will not get an answer for my question...which is:
Augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par. 8:First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rater, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time" -- through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions -- we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge. -- Matthew 24:45.
Is there anywhere I can find other excerpts from WTS literature that discourages independent thinking??
Thanks!!
sadie
today's watchtower lesson instructs witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to bible understanding:.
augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par.
first, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned.
Sorry for chiming in a little late here...like 3 mos after the original posting (I hope someone reads this anyway).
Does anyone know where I can get more of these anti-independent thinking excerpts from the JW literature???
Thank you, thank you, thank you in advance!!!!
sadie
i have been a reader of this message board for a number of years and this is the first comment i have made in that time.
i have been part of the wts for 20 years my parents believed they had found the truth when i was 10 and from then on we hung to every word uttered from the platform at the kingdom hall.
my wife was a witness brought up in the wts all her life so the wts was a massive part of all our familes lives from parents to brothers and sisters.
Freeborg, I'm not a JW (never have been) so I don't really have anything to contribute. I just wanted to drop you a few lines to tell you this is a good idea. I wouldn't make it "hate" oriented, though. No one enjoys reading things with a negative tone (such as bible tracts telling folks to repent or burn ). I would simply make it explicitly informative. Tell people things they won't hear at a KH meeting or in a private bible study.
Good luck to you!!
And FredHall... Are you an active Jehovah's Witness? Just curious.
sadie
if jesus is not god, then explain... .
-how can jesus know all men (john 16:30)?
-how can jesus, the christ, dwell in you (col. 1:27)?
I am undecided in what I believe regarding the trinity. But I have studied into it quiet a bit. When I read (what I quoted below) it reminded me of a scripture I found in 1 Corinth 10:1-4 (NWT version, I mean "translation").
It reads:
"1-Now I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea 2- and got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; 3- and all ate of the same spiritual food 4- and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."
....Does this mean that Christ was with them in the desert??
In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? see John 8:58.
Thanks for posting this. Very informative.
sadie
