Sage

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Posts by Sage

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  125

  Ya'll dont believe in God?

  by flower in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have to ask this although i have a feeling i dont really want to read the responses but anyway.

  i talked to several people here today who dont believe there is a god at all.

  this is disturbing!

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  Sage

  Oh yeah, definitely a God!
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  20

  Was Rutherford drunk when.....?

  by Pureheart in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  have any of you read the finished mystery that was written in 1917?

  it was started by russell and completed by rutherford who published it.

  i am half way through the book and have skimmed through the majority of it.. rutherford either had to be drunk or crazy when he wrote that pitiful interpretation of revelations.

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  Sage

  IF any of you are interested, you can obtain The Watchtowers from 1879-1940 and ALL of Rutherford's Books from Research Applications

  . http://www.researchapplications.org/HTML%20pages/products.html

  You can obtain the COMPLETE writings of C.T. Russell from the Bible Students at . http://www.biblestudents.net/software/bbs.htm

  The Above CD Rom has the original Watchtowers, the Studies in the Scriptures and EVERYTHING else Russell wrote before and during teh Watchtowers, even his early Adventist writings.
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  20

  Was Rutherford drunk when.....?

  by Pureheart in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  have any of you read the finished mystery that was written in 1917?

  it was started by russell and completed by rutherford who published it.

  i am half way through the book and have skimmed through the majority of it.. rutherford either had to be drunk or crazy when he wrote that pitiful interpretation of revelations.

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  Sage

  Yes, Russell did not write the book. He had intended in writing a book but never got the opportunity. Only about 1/4 of the bok has quotes taken from Russell's writings, and these quotes are nothing dynamic. However put ones own thought between these quotes and you come up with some nifty doctrines. The book was mainloy complied By C.J. Woodworth who compiled the "Bible Students Manual," and George Fisher, who eventually wrote a damaging tract against Rutherford. And was taking him to court, to oust Rutherford from his throne, supposedly he had all the paperwork to prove what Rutherfiord did was illegal. However, he died before any action was taken.
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  12

  Splinter Groups

  by Kenneson in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower bible and tract society was born in dissent.

  charles taze russell, its founder, (was a presbyterian, then a congregationalist, then a skeptic, then an adventist, and finally originated his own brand).

  see http://watchtower.observer.org/.

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  Sage

  Below is a listing of Bible Student groups who adhere to the teachings of Charles Taze Russell in one form or another. It has been stated that the Society today has over 500 offshoots, that number may have grown since last I remember some ten years ago. The year next to the group is the year of its incorporation.

  New Covenant Fellowship 1909 [Australia]
  New Covenant Believers 1909
  Associated Bible Students 1914 [Formerly IBSA, name changed in 1914]
  Bible Students Publishing Company 1914 [UK]
  Bible Fellowship Union 1917 [UK]
  Angel of Jehovah Bible and Tract Society 1918 [F.L.A. Freytag]
  Berean Bible Institute 1918 [Australia]
  Stand Fast Bible Students Association 1918
  Pastoral Bible Institute, Inc. 1918 [formed by the 4 ousted directors]
  Laymen's Home Missionary Movement 1918 [Paul S.L. Johnson]
  Forest Gate Church 1920 [UK]
  Christian Truth Institute 1920? [UK]
  New Jerusalem Fellowship 1922 [UK]
  Elijah Voice Society 1923
  Institute of Pyramidology 1923 [UK]
  Servants of Yah 1925
  Old Paths Publications 1925 [UK]
  Christian Millennial Fellowship, Inc. 1928 [Gaetano Boccaccio]
  Dawn Bible Students Association 1928 reorganized as DAWN in 1932
  Watchers of the Morning 1937 [offshoot of Pastoral Bible Institute]
  Goshen Fellowship 1951 [Jesse Hemery UK]
  Epiphany Bible Students Association 1957 [John Hoefle]
  Laodicean Home Missionary Movement 1957 [John Krewson]

  These are the English speaking groups. There are foreign language groups all over Europe, the Middle East and Asia that publish their own journals and literature in cooperation with the USA groups.

  The above are just the Bible Student groups, in the 1930s through the present, there have been Jehovah's Witness offshoots, too numerous to document.

  Hope this helps.
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  7

  The Watchtower and copyrights

  by RR in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the publications the society publises, one wonders if they actually do copyright everything.

  let's face it, that's a lot of money to legally copyright four issues a month.

  i say legally, because anyone can wriote "copyright" on something, but it may not be protected under the copyright laws.. i've notice also that the society has trademarked "watchtower", actually they have trademarked "the watchtower announcing jehovah's kingdom," [i don't want ma accusing me of spreading lies].

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  Sage

  RR wrote

  I know that during the same time that the Society was publishing their Watch Tower magazine, the Adventist also had a Watch Tower magazine.

  You mean that at one time there were two 'Watch Tower' journals published and distributed at the same time? How can this be? What proofs have you?
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  12

  A funny thing happened at the book store

  by OrangeBlossom in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recently ordered another copy of "in search of christian freedom" as i got rid of my first one (long story) and since it had been a couple of years since i read it, i decided to get another one.. since i live in a fairly small town, i decided to give a fake name, in case someone worked at the book store that might be a jw.

  it was saturday morning (a time when all good little jw's should be in field service) so i felt it safe to go pick up my book.

  i walk into the store and headed for the counter but was stopped in my tracks by an elder and his family.

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  Sage

  Do what I do, go to a Christian bookstore, no decent Jw would be caugh dead in there, the lair of babylon.

  Or you can order via the internet, often times it is quicker and more private!
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  22

  Baptism in whose name?

  by SharonUT in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if this has been answered before, just point me in the right direction.

  matthew 28:19 says to be baptized in the "name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost.

  " what is the justification used in jehovah's witnesses changing this.

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  Sage

  It is believed by some that this scripture was altered, probably during the third century to support the development of the doctrine of the trinity.

  Since the concession that 1 John 5:7 is spurious, only Matthew 28:19 remains as a scriptural support for the triune name. That is why the triple formula, "father, son and holy spirit:' formed the framework of the Apostles' Creed.

  Oxford scholar Moberly (1902) claimed Matthew 28:19 to be a "solemn precept to baptize in the name of the holy Trinity, which fell from the divine lips of the newly risen Lord"

  Because this scripture is important to the trinitarian belief, there has been little interest in pursuing its authenticity. Yet some scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries believe the scripture was altered. James Martineau, in Seat of Authority, says that the "very account which tells us that at last, after his resurrection, he commissioned his apostles to go and baptize all nations, betrays itself by speaking in the Trinitarian language of the next century and compels us to see in it the ecclesiastical editor."

  In History of Dogma, Adolph Harnack claims Matthew 28:19 is "no word of the Lord" Even the cautious critic Canon Armitage Robinson, in Encyclopedia Biblica, says that Matthew "does not here report the (very words) of Jesus, but transfers to him the familiar language of the church of the Evangelist's own time and locality."

  There are early church writers who also seem to support these views.
  Eusebius, a fourth century writer, had the greatest library of any early church scribe. It contained manuscripts of the new testament that were at least 200 years older than any existing today.

  Manuscripts copied by Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and others not available today gave him access to almost original material. Eusebius cites Matthew 28:19 eighteen times in his work, always in the same form: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you"

  When he comments on the verse, Eusebius places great stress on the phrase,"in my name." Apparently his sources, Origen, Clement and Justin Martyr,excluded "father" and "holy spirit" from this scripture.

  Justin Martyr wrote between 130 A.D. and 140 A.D. While much of his work is no longer available, there is a passage that is generally thought to be a reference to Matthew 28:19: "God hath not yet inflicted nor inflicts the judgment, as knowing of some that still even today ARE BEING MADE DISCIPLES IN THE NAME OF HIS CHRIST, and are abandoning the path of error, who also do receive gifts each as they be worthy, being illumined by the name of this Christ."

  Aphraates, a Syriac writer of the middle-fourth century, cites the text in yet a different manner, "Make disciples of all nations, and they shall believe in me."

  It probably was not until the middle of the third century that the current rendering of Matthew 28:19 appeared when Bishop Cyprian of Rome insisted on the triple formula for baptism. Ironically, Pope Stephen used only one name, Jesus.

  During the fourth century, the orthodox church used the phrase, "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost" as a battle cry against the Macedonians who claimed that no new testament text supported the spirit as part of the trinity. However, by the seventh century the church had wholeheartedly accepted the current rendering of the scripture, and excommunicated the Celtic

  In 1902, the modern scholar F.C. Conybeare summed up the history of the development of Matthew 28:19 as follows: "It is worth considering, however, whether the original text of the gospel did not end at the word 'nations,' and whether the three rival endings of the text were not developed independently, viz:
  (i) 'in my name' in Justin, Eusebius, and perhaps Stephen of Rome and the Pneumato-machi
  (ii) 'and they shall believe in me, in Aphraates, representing the older Syriac version
  (iii) 'baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Ghost; or similar in the Greek gnostic Theodotus, Ter-tullian Latin version of Irenaeus, and the surviving Greek MSS."

  There are four instances of baptism by the Apostles recorded in the book of Acts. In each instance, only the name of Jesus is used in connection with the baptism.

  Acts 2:38. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost was followed by a call to those who would become followers of Jesus: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (NIV)

  Acts 8:16. Philip preached throughout Samaria and gained several converts. However, when Peter and John arrived, those converts had not received the gifts of the spirit that normally accompanied conversion in those days. They then laid their hands upon them, "because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS" (NIV)

  Acts 10:48. Cornelius, the first Gentile convert, was baptized after a
  lengthy conversation with Peter: "So he ordered that they be baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST." (NIV)

  Acts 19:5. Paul's initial encounter with the brethren at Ephesus caused him concern as they had been baptized by Apollos with John's baptism. He instructed them regarding Jesus: "On hearing this, they were baptized INTO THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS" (NIV)
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  47

  WT & Awake Subscription Procedure

  by Gopher in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i moved into a new area several months ago, and my subscriptions to the watchtower and awake magazines expired.

  (note: i'm baaad, not attending meetings in my new area.).

  so it'd be easy to renew my subscription, right?

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  Sage

  I assume that the situation is different for everyone. My subscriptions ARE expiring. Normally the Society notifies me and in the journals are the renewal slips. As far as I could tell, the back of the forms always stated they must go through the congregation.

  In any event, I always sent the forms with a donation directly to the Society, and within a month, get a "Thank you" from the Society and my request accepted.

  This year was something different. On the wrapper itself it states in big red lettering "4 more issues." Nothing more, no subscription renewals.

  So in accordance with that the journals say inside the mags, I returned the wrappers with a donation and a letter stating to renew. We will see what happens. I too live in a new area and no one knows me as a witness.
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  29

  Contradiction?????

  by Yerusalyim in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  on page 132 of the knowledge book it says: who are the "superior authorities"?

  paaul's words in succeeding verses show that they are human governmental authorities.

  (romans 13:1-7; titus 3:1) jehovah did not originateman's governmental authorities, but they exist by his permission.

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  Sage

  You all have some great points. But I must stress that God is simply allowing man to govern himself so that he can see that man cannot govern himself without bringing total chaos.

  Besides if God is in control as you say, why then is the purpose of voting anyway? God's wishes always comes true no matter what we humans feel or say. Satan is truly in control of this world and therefore was able to have Jesus killed. But again Satan is only
  operating because God is ALLOWING him to exist. He could easily do away with him. But this would not prove the point that WE humans cannot govern ourselves. And so it is obvious that we need God to take full control and to do away with all lawlessness. Next time God is in full control we will not dare to go against him as Adam, Eve, Satan etc. did.
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  29

  Contradiction?????

  by Yerusalyim in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  on page 132 of the knowledge book it says: who are the "superior authorities"?

  paaul's words in succeeding verses show that they are human governmental authorities.

  (romans 13:1-7; titus 3:1) jehovah did not originateman's governmental authorities, but they exist by his permission.

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  Sage

  True, they stand in their relative positions by God. For without them the world would be so chaotic, life would be impossible at all.
  Try living without something as simple as traffic laws. The governments are law givers for the moment. That is why Jehovah allows them to exist for the time being.

  These superior authorities are inferior to Jehovah God, however. That is why if their law conflicts with God's law, we obey God as ruler rather than man.

  They way God uses the governments for HIS purposes to minister to our good right now is the mail, police, firemen, education, some even have to from time to time use county hospitals because of a lack of medical insurance and it is provided or possibly food stamps. Our taxes pay for this.

  Satan owns the governments of the word. The perfect Son of God did not deny this when Satan offered them to him to do just one act of worship to him...Mt 4:8,-11

  The governments also misuse their powers. But we as Christians are to be in subjection to them until Jehovah puts an end to them..Dan 2:44, and his Heavenly government is in full operation in heaven, then we on the earth will benefit from "that" government.

  As for voting. There is no man on earth that fulfill all he promises he will do if elected to office. He might try to be fair and do many of the things he has said he will do, but when all said and done he still in an imperfect man and he has many men working for and with him that will and can undermine his authority and eventually he dies anyway and the next man will change what he does not like. We are told: Do not put your trust in nobles. Nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs...Ps 146:3