Posts by smmcroberts

17

OK the the Pope just said christ wasn't born on Dec. 25th

by trujw in

ok duh i knew that as does millions of christians but oh wow will jws have a field day with this.

somehow the popes word now will be taken as proof the truth is right.

everything else he says is the words of satan but this oh this is the true gospel.

smmcroberts

... or any other day, either.

When he admits that part publicly, let me know!

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Caliber: Old medical books may too serve a lesson... of what not to do.

Is it then your contention that this is how Christians regard the OT? As an example of what not to do? For example: don't trust the priests who tell you that God says you must sacrifice animals for your sins, and don't trust prophets who tell you to kill, rape, and pillage? Then when Jesus says we must observe the Law, that must be the hand of a dishonest or extremely careless scribe at work?

I don't think most Christians view it that way (the JWs certainly don't). But if you do, then I would suggest that this is yet another example of your own empathy choosing which parts of the Bible are good examples and which parts serve as examples of what not to do. Once again empathy trumps revelation! It shows that revelation was never the source of our morals. But it is when the reverse happens (revelation trumping empathy) that atrocities are committed. One such example was when the Europeans massacred the indigenous people of the Americas, using the examples in the OT as their moral justification -- too bad they didn't know the OT was an example of what not to do.

PS: whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire."
That is a long way from saying "SHALL BURN IN HELL FIRE".
add to that, that Jesus was speaking of believers dealing with believers ( Brothers)

Didn't Jesus teach that all men were brothers? In any case, the heretics the Catholics tortured were believers. They just believed slightly differently on some technical points (such as if god were one or three persons, or whether they should dispense with the OT.)

Of course, as we well know, Jesus also reputedly spoke of a rich man (not necessarily a believer) "burning" in the flames of hell. Again, I'm all too familiar with the spin we were taught to put on such things to "save face" for Christianity [I gave that spiel myself enough times]. But now that I am no longer an apologist for Christianity I must admit that anyone reading the NT for themselves could easily and honestly come to the conclusion that people who did not believe "correctly" in the magic formula for salvation would be suffering eternally in the afterlife. From that they could conclude that the loving thing to do would be to force heretics to endure temporary pain in this life (via the rack or the iron-maiden, etc.) in order to get them to ascribe to the belief that would save them from eternal torture. You see? It's a perfect example of subverted empathy caused by belief in the supernatural.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Jesus never preached "hell fire" for unbeleivers, but warned of eternal punishment for those that rejected the HS.

"whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire."

I know: as JW's we were taught how to spin around the whole hell-fire thing, but in retrospect, and having just read the Jefferson Bible recently, it seems like Jesus was really into the literal flames of hell. We just don't want to believe it, yet want to keep the "good parts" of what Jesus said, so we "explain away" everything else.

The Catholics in the middle-ages unfortunately didn't have the WT publications, so they read about Jesus talking about hell-fire and they took it literally and tortured heretics to keep them from being burned by their loving god for eternity. Christianity, as a religion which regards the Bible as its source-book, must bear some responsibility for what it appears to plainly state.

We can't honestly fault the Catholics for assuming Jesus meant what he said. Where we can fault them (and all religions) is for letting supernatural nonsense over-ride inherent empathy. It's long past the time that humankind needs to stop doing that.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Caliber: likewise many medical practices of centures ago are viewed as foolish, disgusting and barbaric ....

But we've thrown away (or stuck in museums) these old medical books. No one is suggesting that we should use them as guidebooks today. No one believes they were divinely inspired or that they are in harmony with the latest medical books.

If you're suggesting we treat the OT the same way, then we are in agreement!

Garbage Can

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Christ was very clear in how we are to act for those we love AND for those we hate and it was NEVER return hate with hate or oppress or anthing negative BUT look at the horrifc acts some have commited "in his name".

Some of his words may have conveyed this, but sometimes his actions contradicted the idea. The Bible relates that he engaged in verbal and physical abuse against his enemies. So is it: "Do as I say: not as I do?" And should we then throw out the idea of WWJD?

Also, his frequent mention of hell-fire for unbelievers prompted some Christians to lovingly torture heretics in order to save their souls from damnation. So here again, religion [in this case based on just the supposed words of Jesus] subverted empathy and led to atrocities.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

There is no way to take our "modern morals" and look back at some OT passages and NOT be distrubed by them.
And rightly so.

Thanks for that admission, PS. But I don't think it's just "modern" morals. I think people knew way back then that it was wrong to rape and murder. That's why they had to have religion to force people to do these actions against their better nature. That's why the prophets/priests or whoever claimed to speak for God had to specifically say "Let not your heart feel sorry; show no mercy! God commands it!"

And that is why I say that religion has been, and continues to be, one of the primary institutions that subverts empathy and leads people to commit atrocities.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

@Caliber: Some wrongs cannot be made right, ever. Not even by a god. Not even with an eternity of time.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Caliber: Ecl. 3 also adds this below.. ( I will not justify nor judge... but" have faith" that all things will be made right by God in time)
He has made everything beautiful in its time.

Ah, and now I picture you saying this after Joshua has completed slicing open the pregnant Canaanite woman, and you are stepping over her bloody remains, and those of her baby and the rest of her family. As you walk through the burning wreckage of her village, stepping over the hacked-up bodies of her neighbors (some still moaning in their death throes) you smile as you look adoringly heavenward, and begin to sing "Everything is beautiful in its own time..."

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Caliber: Even in modern warfare do not huge numbers of innocent people suffer death or harm ?

Yes, of course. That's one reason why war is immoral. But don't you expect better from your god of love? I didn't vote for the president of our country for this very reason: he is killing huge numbers of innocent people in his wars. I wouldn't vote for Jehovah as God for the same reason.

Caliber:Why not allow the time and space for the complete manifestation of God's grace ?
The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. (Ex 34:6-7)

For some reason I can't help but picture you standing in the battlefield saying this to a pregnant Cannanite who has just witnessed her entire family murdered, and with Joshua's sword poised in the air about to slice open her belly at your compassionate and gracious god's command.

I don't think she had the "time and space" for that complete manifestation you speak of.

546

non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens in

i do not wish to debate anything here like i have said in the past i have much respect for most on this forum (believers and non believers) i am simply wondering if the atheist or non god believers every worry about what if your wrong?

it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist.

i ask this question only because i care about people and salvation thats why i want to help as many as possable come out of this cult,and since i truly believe in god i dont know what is in the cinscience of those who dont.

smmcroberts

Okay, I've just spent way too much time reading all nine pages on this topic (when I'm supposed to be working!) And now I just have to throw in my two-cents worth...

First of all, to answer the OP question: When I die I fully intend to be dead. My definition of dead is "not alive". So, I don't worry anymore about after-life consequences of non-belief, since I don't believe in any personal existence for myself after my life is over.

As for the here-and-now, if I'm wrong then I accept that; I cannot force myself to believe something I think is false (I don't think anyone can.)

unstopableravens: the wt says the all of us here are not going to be resurrected

For once: something they've actually gotten right!

NoStoneCutters: Yes, Satanus, that is where the Creator of all our chemical reactions comes in, because despite our abundance or lack of empathy, there is a standard by which to determine morality in the absence of empathy or one's unwillingness to act upon it.

And that standard is what, exactly? That's it's acceptable to own people as slaves? To keep women in "subjection" and rape them? To kill civilians in war, including ripping open the bellies of pregnant women? To wipe out entire villages when they have tried to make peace with you? To lie in order to get what you want? To call people you disagree with "fools" and "offspring of vipers" and to whip them?

Why is it that we feel that the above list is a list of atrocities? It is because our inherent empathy rebels against actions which harm another. So, you've really gotten it backwards: the Bible does not serve as our moral guide. We have the morals a priori and judge the Bible as immoral on that basis.

New Chapter, I think I've fallen in love with you.