That is not to say they were capable of good reasoning in general. They continued to minimise other issues I brought up or wouldn't simply say "they were not going to debate with me" when they felt they could not bring good evidence or arguments to the discussion.
doubtfull1799
JoinedPosts by doubtfull1799
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My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.
by doubtfull1799 inwell new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.
the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.
the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.
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My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.
by doubtfull1799 inwell new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.
the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.
the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.
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doubtfull1799
I dont let people get away with questioning my motives or integrity. I point out my decades of faithful and zealous service. Like Paul says of himself, "I was more zealous than my contemporaries." My track record proves my character.
A case in point: During one their visits I was discussing with my colleagues (from the elder body I stepped down from) how I had prayed earnestly to Jehovah for answers to my questions, and for help with my distress, but had not received any answers or any comfort. One elder then (without thinking) used the old faith-healer fallacy: if you are not getting the results the problem is with you - you don't have enough faith. Only he worded it in a way as to question my sincerity and motives - that I was not genuine on my prayers or not working in harmony with them etc.
I immediately challenged them on this and asked them to leave. Lo and behold, they soon after arranged another visit to "apologise." They admitted to overstepping their authority and crossing a line they shouldn't cross when making those accusations. I think they realised they had no valid grounds. I respect them for acknowledging that at least.
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Scriptures that now have such a different meaning?!
by stuckinarut2 init struck me that so many of the scriptures that the society uses to condemn others, can actually apply to them!.
when we read them without the application that the society enforces, they can make you have that "ah-ha!
" moment.... for instance, how about:.
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doubtfull1799
Great list Island Man
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My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.
by doubtfull1799 inwell new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.
the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.
the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.
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doubtfull1799
I should add that much of New testament theology is from the Apostle Paul who received a personal revelation, which was also lacking in any witnesses, as per his own admission that the men who were with him saw/heard nothing specific.
@Listener, thank you for providing that quote form the Feb 2017 Watchtower, that is good context for this discussion. I would note that none of the three supports listed are the "testimony" of "witnesses." They are all just further claims based again on self testimony:
1. We claim that holy spirit is directing us, 2. We claim that angels are assisting us, 3. We claim that we rely on God's word.
What we actually require is testimony from the HS or the angels themselves!
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My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.
by doubtfull1799 inwell new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.
the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.
the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.
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doubtfull1799
Well new to me anyway, I'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.
The next time I get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “But you do believe that the GB are God’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, I am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:
The matter to be established: Have the GB of Jehovah’s Witnesses received divine appointment to act as God’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?
The scriptures make very clear two important principles in establishing any important matter...
- Two, preferably three, witnesses are needed:
“This is the third time I am coming to you. ‘On the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter must be established.’” - 2 Corinthians 13:1
2. The witnesses need to be independent. The one making a claim cannot be a witness for oneself:
“If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness he bears about me is true. You have sent men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved... and the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me.” - John 5:31-36
So, based on those two scriptural principles they claim to follow, all I ask is this: Do you have two or three independent witnesses you can present? If you do I would be happy to asses the testimony of those witnesses. Or is it the case that the GB bear witness about themselves?
The only possible comeback that I can anticipate to this is they might try and use the context, specifically John 5:39, to try and claim that the scriptures bear witness to the fact that the GB are divinely appointed because the GB are the only ones who truly follow/apply scripture properly. However, the reality is it is not the scriptures themselves, but the GB’s interpretation of them (specifically Matthew 24:45), and application of them to themselves. Therefore we are back to square one: They are testifying about themselves by applying scriptures to themselves. Good does not testify directly about them through the scriptures - an impossibility since they did not even exist when the scriptures were written!
Aside from the obvious that we all know (that JW’s can’t/won't critically think or reason, they will come up with a twisted way to explain anything) can you see any other pitfalls in this line of reasoning that I should be aware of/prepared for?
In my experience they will usually retreat to a fallback position at this stage: reliance on anecdotal & subjective (so-called) evidence, such as “blessings,” “growth,” “number of translation languages” etc etc, instead of actual witnesses. Those Bible principles will go out the window as irrelevant without a second thought.
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The Bible Texts Watchtower has never commented on
by ILoveTTATT2 inthe watchtower library is a great tool to learn more about the watchtower itself.
for example, answering the question "does the word "organization" ever appear in the bible"?
is easy to answer using it.
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doubtfull1799
I dont think they've ever commented on JOHN 5:31. At least I cant find a reference to that verse in the online indexes.
Perhaps because this quote is the most pertinent to the problem of the identity of the Faithful & discreet slave? The GB bear witness about themselves, which as the verse says is a false witness. -
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Transcripts for Case Study 54 available
by OrphanCrow inavailable now in either a pdf or word format:.
http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
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doubtfull1799
Yes I thought that was a nit of a lie. As far as I now the Watchtower library only goes back to 1950. The online version only goes back to 2000.
I've never heard of a Bethel edition or a Research Suite. @jwleaks can you please provide more info on what they contain?
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Book That Helped Me - My Recommended Reading List
by doubtfull1799 inthese are the books that led to my awakening:.
the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.
how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.
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doubtfull1799
Yes smiddy, I have. Over the last 18 months or so. 1984 for the third time!
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What is the basis for advising “Don’t pursue higher studies”?
by venus intwo elders who visited my friend last week encouraged her not to pursue higher studies.
it seems they are dishing out the same old stuff: “the end is imminent, and this is the time to do more in the service; hence don’t waste your resources on higher studies.”.
i wonder whether there was some official communiqué (something that is sent out recently like letter to the elders, or kingdom ministry article …).
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doubtfull1799
1. Bad association
2. Indoctrination in worldly thinking & philosophy
3. Time wasted that is not beneficial to the ministry
I think that about sums it up.
Real reason: Keep you away from learning critical thinking skills!
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Book That Helped Me - My Recommended Reading List
by doubtfull1799 inthese are the books that led to my awakening:.
the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.
how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.
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doubtfull1799
Thanks Saethydd, am currently reading it already.