doubtfull1799

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Posts by doubtfull1799

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  11

  Scriptures that now have such a different meaning?!

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  it struck me that so many of the scriptures that the society uses to condemn others, can actually apply to them!.

  when we read them without the application that the society enforces, they can make you have that "ah-ha!

  " moment.... for instance, how about:.

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  doubtfull1799

  Great list Island Man
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  24

  My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.

  by doubtfull1799 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.

  the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.

  the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.

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  doubtfull1799

  I should add that much of New testament theology is from the Apostle Paul who received a personal revelation, which was also lacking in any witnesses, as per his own admission that the men who were with him saw/heard nothing specific.

  @Listener, thank you for providing that quote form the Feb 2017 Watchtower, that is good context for this discussion. I would note that none of the three supports listed are the "testimony" of "witnesses." They are all just further claims based again on self testimony:

  1. We claim that holy spirit is directing us, 2. We claim that angels are assisting us, 3. We claim that we rely on God's word.

  What we actually require is testimony from the HS or the angels themselves!
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  24

  My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.

  by doubtfull1799 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.

  the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.

  the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.

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  doubtfull1799

  Well new to me anyway, I'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.

  The next time I get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “But you do believe that the GB are God’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, I am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:

  The matter to be established: Have the GB of Jehovah’s Witnesses received divine appointment to act as God’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?

  The scriptures make very clear two important principles in establishing any important matter...

  1. Two, preferably three, witnesses are needed:

  “This is the third time I am coming to you. ‘On the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter must be established.’” - 2 Corinthians 13:1

  2. The witnesses need to be independent. The one making a claim cannot be a witness for oneself:

  “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness he bears about me is true. You have sent men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved... and the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me.” - John 5:31-36

  So, based on those two scriptural principles they claim to follow, all I ask is this: Do you have two or three independent witnesses you can present? If you do I would be happy to asses the testimony of those witnesses. Or is it the case that the GB bear witness about themselves?

  The only possible comeback that I can anticipate to this is they might try and use the context, specifically John 5:39, to try and claim that the scriptures bear witness to the fact that the GB are divinely appointed because the GB are the only ones who truly follow/apply scripture properly. However, the reality is it is not the scriptures themselves, but the GB’s interpretation of them (specifically Matthew 24:45), and application of them to themselves. Therefore we are back to square one: They are testifying about themselves by applying scriptures to themselves. Good does not testify directly about them through the scriptures - an impossibility since they did not even exist when the scriptures were written!

  Aside from the obvious that we all know (that JW’s can’t/won't critically think or reason, they will come up with a twisted way to explain anything) can you see any other pitfalls in this line of reasoning that I should be aware of/prepared for?

  In my experience they will usually retreat to a fallback position at this stage: reliance on anecdotal & subjective (so-called) evidence, such as “blessings,” “growth,” “number of translation languages” etc etc, instead of actual witnesses. Those Bible principles will go out the window as irrelevant without a second thought.
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  19

  The Bible Texts Watchtower has never commented on

  by ILoveTTATT2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower library is a great tool to learn more about the watchtower itself.

  for example, answering the question "does the word "organization" ever appear in the bible"?

  is easy to answer using it.

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  doubtfull1799

  I dont think they've ever commented on JOHN 5:31. At least I cant find a reference to that verse in the online indexes.
  Perhaps because this quote is the most pertinent to the problem of the identity of the Faithful & discreet slave? The GB bear witness about themselves, which as the verse says is a false witness.
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  8

  Transcripts for Case Study 54 available

  by OrphanCrow in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  available now in either a pdf or word format:.

  http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.

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  doubtfull1799

  Yes I thought that was a nit of a lie. As far as I now the Watchtower library only goes back to 1950. The online version only goes back to 2000.

  I've never heard of a Bethel edition or a Research Suite. @jwleaks can you please provide more info on what they contain?
  
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  11

  Book That Helped Me - My Recommended Reading List

  by doubtfull1799 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  these are the books that led to my awakening:.

  the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.

  how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.

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  doubtfull1799

  Yes smiddy, I have. Over the last 18 months or so. 1984 for the third time!
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  36

  What is the basis for advising “Don’t pursue higher studies”?

  by venus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  two elders who visited my friend last week encouraged her not to pursue higher studies.

  it seems they are dishing out the same old stuff: “the end is imminent, and this is the time to do more in the service; hence don’t waste your resources on higher studies.”.

  i wonder whether there was some official communiqué (something that is sent out recently like letter to the elders, or kingdom ministry article …).

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  doubtfull1799

  1. Bad association

  2. Indoctrination in worldly thinking & philosophy

  3. Time wasted that is not beneficial to the ministry

  I think that about sums it up.

  Real reason: Keep you away from learning critical thinking skills!
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  11

  Book That Helped Me - My Recommended Reading List

  by doubtfull1799 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  these are the books that led to my awakening:.

  the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.

  how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.

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  doubtfull1799

  Thanks Saethydd, am currently reading it already.
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  11

  Book That Helped Me - My Recommended Reading List

  by doubtfull1799 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  these are the books that led to my awakening:.

  the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.

  how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.

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  doubtfull1799

  These are the books that led to my awakening:

  The Art of Thinking Clearly - Rolf Dobelli

  How to Defend the Christian Faith: Advice From an Evolutionist - John W.Loftus

  Evolution - What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters - Donald R. Prothero

  Crisis of Conscience - Raymond Franz

  Apocalypse Delayed - Penton

  The Quest for the Historical Israel - Israel Finkelstein

  The Finished Mystery - WTB&TS

  Captives of a Concept - Don Cameron

  1984 - George Orwell (What a genius!)

  Some other books I found really helpful in sorting out the mess (in no particular order):

  
  

  The Invention of Religion - Alexander Drake

  Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of your Life - Richard W. Paul

  Cognitive Illusions: A Handbook on Fallacies & Biases... - Rudiger F. Pohl

  The Invention of Nature - Andrea Wulf

  A History of Religion in the Old Testament Period - Rainer Albertz

  Waking Up - Sam Harris

  Rock of Ages - Stephen J. Gould

  The Pursuit of the Millennium - Norman Cohn

  The Battle For God - Karen Armstrong

  Angels & Women - J.G.Smith

  Questioning the Millennium - Stephen J. Gould

  How Jesus became God - Bart D. Ehrman

  The Better Angels of our Nature - Steven Pinker

  The Moral Arc - Michael Shermer

  Irrationality - Stuart Sutherland

  What also helped me was reading many books on Scientology & North Korea and noticing the similarities!
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  13

  A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

  by David_Jay in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

  around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

  there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

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  doubtfull1799

  Appreciate your comments David_Jay. It's just further proof that belief in God does not automatically equal moral behaviour and vise versa. On a side note I wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed many of your posts that provided a "Jewish" perspective on debates on Biblical meaning & interpretation. They were most enlightening and gave me a different perspective I never had before. So thank you.