Lex Talionis
Let the battle begin...Bring it on.
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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73
The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible
by AddaGirl inwatchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.
most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.
i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.
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bennyk
Post 326
You are very sadly mistaken because you are paying close attention to what the text actually says. Jeremiah 25:11,12 indicates that Judah and the nations would be in servitude to Babylon for a period of seventy years and that the land of Judah would also be devastated for seventy years. as in verse 11. Verse 12 indicates that after the seventy years were fulfilled or ended then Babylon, its king and the land of Chaldea would bceome a devaststed place. None of these things happened at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE. This prophecy began to go into fulfillment after the exile of Jews had returned home in 537 BCE thus ending that seventy years of servitude, exile and desolation, after some centuries Babylon and it territory gradually declined reaching a state of total devastation.
scholar JW
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73
The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible
by AddaGirl inwatchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.
most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.
i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.
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AddaGirl
Post 5
I have downloaded your treatise on chronology and will print it out for a more detailed appraisal later meanwhile I offer the following points that may be of assistance to you. As a suggestion why do you not post the Society's replies to your question as I am sure that the Society would have given you a complete and satisfactory answer as has always been their normal practice.
For starters, there is only one definite fixed historic period of 'seventy years based upon the prophecy of Jeremiah and later by Zechariah, observed by Daniel and later referrred to by Ezra. Josephus also speaks of a sole seventy year period which included a fifty year period of obscurity running from the Fall of Jerusalem and the Return from Exile. Celebrated WT scholars using a simple Bible chronology proven by biblical and secular history places these events from 607 BCE until 537 BCE. This gives a fixed period of seventy years.
There being multiple 'seventy years' is impossible for this only confuses the subjects and using other dates such as 605 BCE or 609 BCE are also impossible for the beginning of the period is also impossible. Further, the ending of the period in 539 BCE is also sadly impossible.
In short, the only way that all of the data in scripture can be harmonized is to view the seventy years as one definite period of desolation of the land, exile in Babylon and in servitude to Babylon so the seventy years is characterized by three elements: DESOLATION-SERVITUDE-EXILE which is exactly how Josephus viewed the matter.
I have spent many decades studying this subject and have read numerous commentaries and scholarly journals on the subject so this well accord's with the view of the FDS.
scholar JW
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Leolaia
Post 11709
I hope that the preamble of your opinion as posted by the person reponsible for Watchtower Comments now realizes that your opinion far from being scholarly in nature is simply for "informal. lay-oriented discussion".
Your exegesis of the subject of the Parousia and the Generation is dishonest whereupon you claim without evidence that parousia means 'coming' and not presence. Further, you claim that the description of the parousia as an extended period of time comes ot of nowhere. It is you who have comprehension skills as the reason for this interpretation is clearly presented in four paragraphs under the heading An Extended Period of Time. This section is based upon two major exegetical considerations namely the parousia began in 1914 with the installation of Jesus Christ as King in heaven and the period syntelia as 'the conclusion of the system of things' corresponds or runs parallel with the parousia. Also it is stated as an accepted fact that parousia means 'presence'.
Next, In the immediate context the parousia was compared by Jesus himself to the Days of Noah and not to the Flood of Noah in Matthew 24:37-39 wherein parousia is mentioned twice. Clearly this period was not momentary but covered a long or extended period of time and it was described as a parousia. You are quite mistaken when you foolishly claim that "It is not this prior state that is compared to the parousia but the cataclysm that brings it to its consummation". The pericope clearly states otherwise, the Flood simply concluded or ended that Noachin Parousia.
Further, other Bible prophecies from Revelation such as the Four Horsemen or Cavaliers which agains begins with the now exalted and victorious Jesus Christ followed by succeeding prodigies or woes for the earth all of which have affected the world since 1914. We are and have seen all of these things since 1914 which looking back is indeed an extended period of time. These woes correspond with Sign asked by the disciples in Matthew 24:3 and such were described from the beginning of Jesus' answer which beginning of the parousia and the synteleia. Contrary to your view, commentators do indeed find paralleles between the Messianic woes of Matthew and these Four Horsemen. (Revelation 6-16, WBC, Vol.52B,1998, p.424)
Revelation 12describes the birth of God's kingdom which was followed by a 'period of time' in which the worls would suffer many woes and looking back to 1914 we see clear evidence that over that period of time manking has been afflicted with those many woes described by the Synoptic writers and the Apostle John. Psalms 2 and 110 describe that same installation of the Christ as King and the alluded events would also occupy a long period of time. In short, those paragraphs well prove that the parousia would be a period of time marked by many significant events attested by modern history to that epochal year of 1914.
Scholars publish their research in journals and invite criticsm for they realize that scholarship remains always a work in progress and so it is with Biblical Revelation and Interpretation. Scholars also know that there are many different interpretations so it is wise for readers and students of Scripture to read widely and not to be gullible. Your opinion is presented in a dogmatic way which promotes gullibility in the minds of its readers. It is as you correctly say, Your opinion.
scholar JW
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Leolaia
Post 11707
Oh Supreme One. Now you have admitted that you could have written up a much better crtique, more scholarly in fact so Why not do just that. The Society in its Study Edition has published for all mankind a thoughtful study of the Olivet Discourse. You say that you have available further detailed information for your critique so then you can provide an Addendum which would contain References to the scholarly literature in order to prove your claims. Perhaps you would like me to assist you in this matter for I am able to provide a list of points that demand proof from you or evidence that you recognize that some of the sugjects are very contentious. Let us then see who is the pseudo-scholar.
scholar JW
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Post 388
Because you have not found the 'celebrated WT scholars' does not mean they do not exist. Did you look under your bed at Bethel or look into your wardrobe? Surely, you must have found at least one! The identity of this group must remain anonymous so Alas I cannot assist you as to there identity. Publications of the Watch Tower are not lies but are based upon careful research and champion God's inspired Word for if these publications then why are such publications spiritual food for apostates. Apostates publish nothing, no commentary, no articles or books based on the Bible . Such an evil slave class offers no spiritual food but they harp and carp being critical of what the FDS publishes. This is blatant hypocrisy so if you have something to say or something better to say then have it published and be honest about it.
If you have a better interpretation of Christ's presence and the generation then write it up and publish it so that any reader can benefit. In other words, Put up or Shut up!
scholar JW
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Because you were in Bethel does not mean that none of the 'celebrated WT scholars were there present for the majority do not reside in Bethel. You talk about the Society's flip-flop interpretations so what about Christendom' hopeless confusion and doubt on this subject, What do you prefer, doubt over 'faith, confusion over adjustment. I prefer the Society's 'flip-flops' which are in accord with the Master's exhortation for his true disciples to be 'On the Watch' any day.
I will let you into a little secret. The Society does not and has not protect pedophiles for these are the hysterics of such apostates as Bill Bowen and Barbara Anderson/
scholar JW
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OOMPA
What you fail to understand and appreciate is the simple fact that the entire Olivet Discourse is a exegetical nightmare for scholars and theologians and so there are sound reasons why FDS has had to revise its understanding of matters including that much vexed phrase 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34. The only thorough academic study on this phrase in English that I have sighted is by Ernest Lovestam published as a Monograph in a Series edited by J. Lambrecht, 1980, republished in 1995 under the title Jesus and 'this Generation'.
So there is a paucity of exegesis on this phrase but abundant exegesis of the entire Olivet narrative all with much confusion with past and present scholarship. Therefore, by paying close attention to the text, its context and with Holy Spirit we how have certainty of interpretation and all of us can be ever so grateful and humble. May the Lord be praised!
scholar JW
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Justitia Themis
You inquire about whether I should be posting on this board as a loyal and active Witness because such a board is offlimits to such ones according to the directives of the Society. From time to time this matter has been raised with me and I reply as follows; This board is a public form which has has as its purpose a discussion of Jehovah's Witnesses. My conscience and sense of Duty compels and permits me from time to time wjereupon it is necessary to defend and uphold the teachings and beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. My life is dedicated to Him and to cooperate with his Orgabization or Church and Obey his Sacred Word. I post infrequently made necessary when an issue arises that seeks to diminish our sacred biblical teachings and the faith of various readers is challenged. My sole purpose in posting is simply to defend our beliefs and not to convert anyone for all of us must make choices in our lives and be responsible for such choices.
It may well be that in the future I may rethink my position and cease posting on this board becaus one's conscience, moral sense and spirituality is ever evolving. For the moment my sense of duty, moral integrity and conscience impels me to give a defence in accord with 1 Peter 3:15.
scholar JW
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truthseeker
Post 1568
Yes, no doubt Leolaia should make her own defence and she has already begun but you have read her piece, you have embraced it so why can't you defend it if you have truly understood it? Or are you gullible?
Leolaia is a very intelligent, articulate and well qualified academic and no doubt is far superior to me for I am simply a nobody, a simple Jehovah's Witness but I have some intellectual ability inferior to most and I use my abilities whatever these are to defend Jehovah, His Word and His Organization with all my power and strength because that is what I have dedicated my life. Integrity, Endurance, Courage, Mateship Sacrifice were qualities that marked the ANZACS and these self same qualities are very much characteristic of the Early Christians and Modern Day Christians known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
However, in this instance Leolaia has let the side down and has not served her loyal devotees well by producing a piece of articulate, poorly researched, biased nonsense.
scholar JW