Posts by scholar

45

Questions concerning 607

by beavis in

i am sorry to hash and rehash this old topic, but i have a friend that has continually asked the wt's chronology of 607 and that historians do not agree with their thoughts on their selection of this date to "fit" their ideaolgies.

could someone give me information from credible historians that absolutely prove that 607 is impossible?

this person has looked up information and what they have found so far is that most websites or some persons on this site do not show conclusively that 607 is not credible.

scholar

beavis

Post 23

The date 607 BCE is not impossible as you claim for in fact it is the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem that is in harmony with the Bible, ancient history and secular evidence. It is correct that modern scholars and historians do not support this date but such authorities also do not believe the Bible and herein lies the problem. It is either the Bible or the theories of men. One poster has suggested that you comsult the research of Carl Jonsson who argues against 607 but I suggest that you read the research of Rolf Furuli who has published two volumes on ancient chronologies and the Bible so that you have a complete picture of the conflict.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

boyzone

Post 53

My response:

Request for a Sign; The fact that a Sign was asked could show that the disciples understood that the Parousia would be invisible because it was a state of affairs that could not be observed. Earlier, Jesus had told the them the the coming of the Kingdom of God would not be with striking observablenesss. Luke 17:20 Therefore having this statement in the back of their minds they used parousia instead of coming as the question. Jesus' reply indicates that that presence would need to be discerned and was likened to the Days of Noah. You cite Acts 1:6 but this was to do with another completely different question as to whether Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel which has nothing at all to do with His parousia.

Presence over a period of time. Jesus did in fact compare His parousia to the Days of Noah leading right up to and including the Deluge. This confirmation is in the beginning and end of that pericoipe on the Flood. Just slowly ever so slowly read the text out aloud. He does not compare it to the Flood alone for that is simply false. The next verse opens with tote'then' so his mention of the two men and women pertain to an event at the conclusion of the parousia.

Preseence required discernment. Jesus provides clear markers that indicate that the parousia was something that had to be discerned. First, he likened to the flashings of lightnings from East to West that indicate the comprehensiveness of the parousia and second that it was compared to the Days of Noah. Finally, the exhortation to his disciplles to Keep on the watch. Further, contextual proofs could be provided but these three facts should be sufficient.

The quotation of Adolf Deismann's comment on Parousia or Parusia does not help your argument in fact the opposite is true for there is no evidence anywhere in the literature both Ancient and Modern that would any other meaning for parousia than 'presence'.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Mary

Post 9272

I am not resposnsible fo how the word parousia is treated in the Lexica. Indeed other secondary meanings are given and examples are presented in accordance with this in the Lexicons for that is what Lexicons do. However, the primary focus of the celebrated WT scholars is the use of this word in the Christian Greek Scriptures and there is sufficient eveidence therein to conclusively prove that parousia means ;presence' and 'presence' alone. The noun occurs 24 times in the NT and the verbal form also occurs 24 times so there is sufficient usuage for deteremining its meaning.How it is used in other sources such as the LXX and extrabiblical sources is important and interesting but not essential in determings its use by Matthew. The context of Matthew, use in the rest of the NT, its literal meaning and that of the lexica are quite sufficient. Thank you.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 488

Nice to have you back on board. Sorry to hear the sad news about your dear wife and I trust that all will go well with you in this time of trial.

As I have argued several times on this board, Chronology is all about methodology and interpretation so many many if not all date cannot be ever 'proved' regardless of the skill of the chronologist. At best, one can only demonstrate by reason dates for specific events in a chronology. No date for the Return can be proved in the absolute sense but upon a carful examination of the Scriptures and secular history the date 537 BCE is the most proovable date.

The date of the Return indeed is the only possible date to end the seventy year period as descibed by Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra. The other candidate, 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon is impossible for the very simple amongst many others that the Jews were still Babylon at that time and the land was still desolate at that time.

You raise the matter of inclusive reckoning but if we subtract the period from the precise month namely Tishri, 607 until Tishri, 537 BCE we get 70 full years as required by the Bible writers and in harmony with Josephus.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

jgnat

Post 14699

From the time of her earliest posts Leolaia has always showed a preference for extrabiblical and extracanonical sources and she repeats this same methodology in her critique of the Parousia and Generation. My preference on the other hand is to regard the Bible as the primary source and all others that may be used as simply secondary sources. Leolaia and I follow different methodologies and this produces different results. Further, I take notice of current scholarship by reading technical commentaries and leading scholarly journals so that I can be on top of the subject matter.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

If you do not believe in the existence of the 'celebrated' WT scholars then that is your problem for I care not a wit. My supply of spiritual food is well met by the meetings and literature published by FDS. If I need extra sustenance then I consuly my theological library or a local theological library for that extra spice or nutrient. Information provided by apostates has limited value being full of poison so one needs to treat that as a chemist would in handling a poisonous or dangerous product. Handle with care.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

boyzone

Scholar makes no mistakes on this matter and niether does the FDS and its 'celebrated' WT scholars. Fine tuning or adjustments in the pursuit of scholarship and the spiritual nourishment of the Lord's people ia all that is necessary.

The notion of invisibility is wholly ensconsed to the Olivet Discourse and the Synoptics. A little common sense and reason also has much merit. No one knows what was in the minds of those few disciples on the mountain. All that we can know for certainty was the question put to Jesus and Jesus' answer to hHis disciples. The context of the narrative and the vocabulary are all part of the understanding of the nature of the Parousia and the Generation. If the Parousia was momentary or the last event as alleged by Leolaia then Why did the disciples use parousia rather than coming.? If 'coming' was meant then Why was that word not used for it is there in Greek? These are questions that Reason demands of an explanation. So your argument is nonsensical.

The necessity of a sign would indicate that the presence could escape their notice and if it required special insight and was over a long period of time then the presence must logically be invisible. So, in short, I have provided three basic facts that prove the invisibility of the presence.

1. Request for a Sign

2. Presence over a long period of time shown by comparison with the Days of Noah

3. Presence required discernment by the disciples.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 333

I have done the maths and considerd all of the references to the seventy years by Josephus and his summation of matters agrees totally with that of the 'celebrated' WT scholars. As I said; Poor history equals poor chronology so one cannot do accurate chronology unless one gets the history right. You need to get the facts right about Josiah' s reign and his intervention into the military invasion of the Pharaoh Necho who was only later defeated by the Babylonians unders Nabopolassar. At that time Josiah's descendants came under Egyptian servitude later to be replaced by the Babylonians. The two texts you cited prove my point not yours.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

Post 403

Alas I cannot help you in your search for the identity of the 'celebrated WT scholars even they have been present for many decades even centuries. I disagree with you about the latest clarification of the 'generation' of Mattew 24:34. Indeed the 'celebrated WT scholars have over the last few years researched this subject very thoroughly and now at long last we have now this enhanced understanding of matters. All peoples including those lost to Christendom can greatly benefit from this fine spiritual food. Even apostates have been seen feeding on this food as they receive nothing from the evil-slave class.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Mary

Post 9268

The proper or only correct renderingof parousiain Matthew 24:3 is ;presence' because that is what the word means and is the only meaning consistent with that entire chapter. Coming or arrival would not work because Matthew late describes the Parousia as a period of time as in the Days of Noah right up to the Flood. The notion of invisibility is proven by the fact that His disciples asked for a Sign of the Parousia so this would not have been necessary if a visible presence was meant.

We have no agenda other than preaching the Gospel message based on the truths of God's Word.

Now you are talking sense- talking my language. Yes,Yes Oh Yes! Why does not Leolaia submit her opinion accompanied by that brilliant Study Edition of the Watchtower and have the matter tested.

I would have thought that the question asked of the Master was a sincere one and that they needed to have tangible proof or evidence for those things, the presence and the conclusion of the system. If a coming was implied then there would have been no need for a sign and the disciples would not have chosen presence but the Greek word for coming in a matter of speaking without my being to technical. All were singing from the same songsheet for the disciples knew what they were asking and Jesus knew what he was answering.

Jesus when describing his presence was likening it to lightning from the EAST to the WEST such would be the comprehensiveness of the presence diccerned only by his disciples because of its invisibility and that it be beyond the statements of false prophets.

Nice and easy.

scholar JW