wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
NonCoinCollector
esus would have known that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed by Babylon in 607 BCE. Having witnessed the events as an angel, he would have known the exact day.
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Nonsense. Jesus would have known the exact year that Jerusalem fell in King Zedekiah's 11th year and King Nebuchadnezzer's 18th year which in our modern calendar not used in Jesus' day is properly calculated as 607 BCE
scholar JW
wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
Vanderhoven
I see no evidence let alone proof that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment. I see only speculation. If it is not stated, it is merely assumed.
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The evidence is as summarized:
1. The fact that in Daniel 4 there several references about God's Kingdom
2. The fact that the book of Daniel has 'God's Kingdom as its main theme
3. The fact that the Aramaic word iddan and iddanim meaning 'times' and 'times' has both a lieral and figurative meaning according to Hebrew Lexicons
4. The fact that Jesus in Luke 21:24 made a direct reference to 'times' in connection with the city of Jerusalem which is consistently iswed in the Bible as a antitype representing again God' s Kingdom
5. The fact that the Old Greek version of Daniel 4 makes a direct refeence to the Fall of the Judean Monarchy as faound in the commentary on Daniel in the Heremeneia commentary series by Danielic scholar John Collins.
6. The fact that Daniel 4 could not have just had a literal meaning of 'seven years' because such supporters do not believe that this was an historical event and is not found in NB Chronology that Nebuchadnezzer was vacant from the throne for those seven years.
7. The fact that schlars observe the relevance of Lukan Eschatology in both Luke and Acts
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Can you quote a nonJW "scholar" who supports this WTS claim?
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No
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Why do you think Jesus couldn't predict 1914 based on Daniel 4?
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The year 191`4 is tabulated in a very different calendrical system to that used in Jesus day but a clue to His thinking in relation to His Kingdom is given in the book of Revelation wherein He makes refence to the 'Lord's Day' which we believe to have begun in 1914 CE
scholar JW
wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
Vanderhoven
The first is that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment.
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Absolutely that Daniel 4 of the tree dream had a double fulfilment as proved by the use of the word 'times' and that the theme of 'God's Kingdom is emphasized in that same chapter and the entire book of Daniel as well as the OG version of Dan.4.
scholar JW
wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
ozziepost
I’m thinking we should be seeing some familiar faces joining our thread pretty soon. 😉
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Are you referring to the mighty scholar?
scholar JW
this from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.
before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).
i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.
Vanderhoven 7
Thanks for your encouragement Blondie. From there in, "Good News... " I go to the the invisible eschatological foundations for the Watchtower authority... and ask them how they know that the apostle Peter was raised in the spring of 1918, Christendom's churches were rejected in the fall of 1918 and Jesus chose Bible Student leaders in Brooklyn New York, who knew nothing about their appointment, to be his Faithful Slave in 1919?
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In my examination of this subject, I have developed the expression for such significant, prophetic events of the years 1914, 1918 and 1919 as an eschatological triennium. Such a crucial period of modern history and that of the only true Christian Church describes the relevance and impact of the end of the Gentile Times, the birth of God's Kingdom and the heavenly resurrection of the Saints or Holy Ones.
Enjoy!!
scholar JW
this from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.
before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).
i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.
Vanderhoven 7
The subject of Interpretation especially the methodology employed by Jehovah's Witnesses - the eschatological church is rather challenging and of particular interest to me. Interpretation lies properly in the field of Hermeneutics and the two basic methods are as you have noted are exegesis and eisegesis. Exegesis of a particular text or passage is usually found in scholarly journals, theses or dissertations and not in WT publications and other Bible commentaries. Eisegesis is not common and usually not favoured by scholars but is practised to a great extent in WT publications and I have no issue with this fact for various books of the Bible can only be properly understood by means of eisegesis alone. Examples of such Bible books which demand eisegesis would be for the OT, the Prophetic literature such as Daniel, Ezekiel etc and for the NT, Revelation.
WT publications provide guidelines for its readers in how to read and understand the Bible and these principles are similar to that of other teachers in Christendom such as Charles Swingoll in his Searching the Scriptures,2009 wherein the basic steps are:
1. Observing the Text
2. Interpreting the Text
3. Correlating the Text
4. Applying the Text
The Bible is a book of literature that consists of several different genres thus different methods or styles of interpretation are required and in the case of the Prophetic genre, eisegesis is the only 'tool in the shed' so to speak and as the eschatological church foretold in Revelation, especially in the case of the 'trumpet blasts' this tool in addition to the revelation by Holy Spirit' succeeds in unlocking the sacred mysteries then proclaimed to peoples worldwide.
scholar JW
how far do we get away from 1914 before they have a new light and admit it was all wrong?.
they cling to the old theory of the 77 week prophecy from the wrong date that jerusalem was destroyed .
with the overlapping generations nonsense still we are getting too far away from 1914. what will they say if we get to the 2030s and they still cling to 1914?.
After all this time, don’t you think we should meet and acknowledge we can be friends ?
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Absolutely but unfortunately I have moved to Brisbane some 9 years ago and I miss my sojourn into Moore Theological Library where I enjoyed doing research and of course as an alumni of the University of Sydney I miss the proximity to that venerable institute of higher learning. My late wife use to own a terrace house in Eveleigh Street, Redfern during the Ghetto period so it was only a short walk to those two institutions. Anyway if we cannot meet personally then we can either meet on zoom or by telephone.
scholar JW
how far do we get away from 1914 before they have a new light and admit it was all wrong?.
they cling to the old theory of the 77 week prophecy from the wrong date that jerusalem was destroyed .
with the overlapping generations nonsense still we are getting too far away from 1914. what will they say if we get to the 2030s and they still cling to 1914?.
waton
wt sch: there is a big difference between being on the watch, and repeatedly aggressively jumping the gun and trying to provoke the deity to fulfill the promise to "bind in heaven what has been bound on earth" (by wt writers) claiming divine guidance on hidden biblical messages. pointing to years, even hours of fulfillment, ( The october 1914 last supper in Brooklyn
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Your comment is ridiculous. You are either on the watch or not by being asleep. One cannot accuse JW's of being asleep, drowsy or lazy for as an organization they have obeyed the Master by continuously preaching the Gospel and Keeping on the Watch.
scholar JW
how far do we get away from 1914 before they have a new light and admit it was all wrong?.
they cling to the old theory of the 77 week prophecy from the wrong date that jerusalem was destroyed .
with the overlapping generations nonsense still we are getting too far away from 1914. what will they say if we get to the 2030s and they still cling to 1914?.
Sea Breeze
FYI, All Christians (pre-millennial) teach the gospel of a literal Kingdom headed by Jesus. Churches call this the Millennium Reign. As a scholar, surely you are aware that the gospel of the kingdom is a strong minority compared to the various gospels taught in the NT.
Gospel of Jesus Christ (or Christ ) – 12 times
Gospel of God – 7 times
Gospel of the kingdom – 4 times
Gospel of peace – 2 times
Gospel of the grace of God – 1 time
Gospel of your salvation – 1 time
Gospel of the uncircumcision – 1 time
Gospel of the circumcision – 1 time
Gospel of his Son – 1 time
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With your analysis of the term 'Gospel',, What then is the Gospel?
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During the Church Age (Age of Grace) Christians were to preach the gospel of grace-Jesus-God-salvation. Paull described this as the ministry of reconciliation. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom... that is for a future time, as it is for us as well.
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During the Church Age of the First Century, Christians then living were Christ's Ambassadors who carried out a ministry of reconciliation - 2 Cor.5:18 and preach the Gospel as a message of the reconciliation - 2 Cor. 5:19. The Gospel is a message of reconciliation preached not only in the First Century but also during the Last Days by the new, restored Eschatological Church which now preaches the Gospel' the good news of God's Kingdom by His Winesses.
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Surely, you would agree that JW's do not preach a ministry of grace or reconciliation like Paul. This is because the WT has convinced them that the dispensation of Grace is already over with....too late. Not so. It is still going on.
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False, JW's most certainly preach the only Gospel which of course is a message of reconciliation as an expression of God's Grace or undeserved kindness to all men of goodwill.
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.The Good News of the Kingdom will primarily be preached during the Great Tribulation as the Age of Grace comes to a close and the birth of God's Kingdom will replace the beastly Anti-Christ World rule.
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It is only Jehovah's Witnesses who are carrying the proclamation of the Gospel- good news to the Kingdom.
scholar JW
how far do we get away from 1914 before they have a new light and admit it was all wrong?.
they cling to the old theory of the 77 week prophecy from the wrong date that jerusalem was destroyed .
with the overlapping generations nonsense still we are getting too far away from 1914. what will they say if we get to the 2030s and they still cling to 1914?.
waton
schjw, are you calling wt inc a truly end time church? a true church ? with errors piled up since 1914 when they proclaimed that they would go to heaven, the world ending? the ancients fiasco in 1925? the "superior authority" mess 1929 ~ 1960 ?
feel sorry for the families that will be laid further astray to add to that 100% failure record including their failed 1914 predictions-
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What can be said despite our record of failed predictions is that we have heeded the Lord's admonition to 'Keep on the Watch' unlike Christendom which has failed to recognize or herald God's Kingdom.
scholar JW
