Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

None of the statements in Matthew 24:15-31 say, suggest or require any "mixture of the timing", and no part of it indicates anything about 1914. But feel free to specify the "direct statements" that you imagine support your position.

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What Matthew 24: 15-31 describes for the 'reader with discernment' is that there is a transitory pericope from vss.23-28 then a shift of viewp[opint regarding the appearance and consequence of the coming of the Son of Man from vss. 29-31 as noted by reputable Bible Commentaries.

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Thanks for demonstrating once again that you can't point to anything specific in the source material to support your (the Watch Tower Society's) position. Instead, you just regurgitate JW dogma.

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The alleged 'regurgitate of JW dogma' accords very nicely to that of leading Bible commentaries so we are in a good position, don't you think?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven7

In your view, is Matthew 24:34 referring to the 1914 generation or to his own generation or to both?

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Both. for Jesus' words are directed to the generation of that day whether that generation could refer to the evil generation or His disciples living at that time and the context indicates that it has a future fulfilment during the time of the Parousia from 1914 with its application to the Church.

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And are you praying that your flight will not occur in winter or on a Sabbath day?

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No

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Drivel. The 'chosen ones' are mentioned in verses 20, 22 and 27 of Matthew chapter 24, wherein it says that after they survive the 'tribulation' (which is 'cut short on their account'), then the 'parousia' occurs at which time they are 'gathered'. None of this supports the JW dogma that the tribulation happens during the 'parousia'.
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Incorrect. The chosen ones referred to in vss.20 -22 are a different group as to timing as this group are of the first century and the chosen ones are of a future time, the time of His Parousia or when the Son of man will appear in glory. Plain and simple!!! LOL
scholar JW
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540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

That is 'word salad'. It isn't the 'structure of the narrative' that 'shows the timing'. The direct statements in Matthew 24:15-31 indicate the 'timing'. Regarding the 'chosen ones', the passage directly states that the 'tribulation' would be 'cut short' on account of the 'chosen ones', and only after the tribulation had ended was 'Christ' meant to appear to 'gather' the 'chosen ones'. No part of the 'structure' suggests the 'presence' of Christ prior to or even during the 'tribulation'.

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Be that as it may, for the Olivet Discourse requires interpretation on two levels: a first-century fulfilment with the destruction of Jerusalem and a later fulfilment with Christ's Parousia beginning in 1914 CE. The direct statements from vs 15 31 prove that there is a mixture of the timing that was to occur prior to 70 CE and after 1914 CE.The chosen ones in the first instance refer to Jesus' disciples and the latter refers to His anointed ones living after 1914 or at the time of His Parousia.

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The JW claim that Jesus' presence began in 1914 with a yet future 'great tribulation' contradicts the Bible's quite direct order of events: 'great tribulation', and then Christ's presence. Their view is a relic of C. T. Russell's failed claims about 1799, 1874 and 1878 and J. F. Rutherford's subsequent attempts to retrofit those claims to 1914 and beyond.

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No it does not make any contradiction with Jesus' clear and unambiguous statement about the great tribulation which climaxed the Parousia.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Nope. No Bible citations to be found there. You have provided speculative commentary about an interpretation that contradicts the plain reading of the relevant scriptures

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You only have to read those pericopes that deal with or mention the 'chosen ones' and the part that they play in the outworking of the Olivet Discourse. The Olivet Discourse has and will continue to be the subject of interpretation but ours is better or superior to your interpretation because we see that it is to a large part -eschatological especially from vs 29 ff in Matt 24 notwithstanding that from vss. 4-28 has noth a dual fulfilment in prophecy and history.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

The fact that some things they expected to happen didn’t happen isn’t evidence that it will happen at a later time. They were just wrong.

It’s also amusing that you recognise that the ‘celestial’ signs were supposed to happen after the ‘tribulation’ but ignore the fact that Jesus’ presence is supposed to happen after those ‘signs’.

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Events that are expected come at the appropriate time and not the time of our choosing and the events that did occur give us confidence that future, expected events will occur at the appointed time.

Jesus' presence or Parousia is described by many events which proved that he was present marked by its definite beginning as King ruling from the appointed time of 1914 CE to be climaxed by the Great Tribulation with the coming of the Son of Man for such events are built on the earlier fulfilment of prophecies or signs pertaining to Jerusalem. In short, the events of the First century in response to that first of three questions undergo the future fulfilment relating to Jesus' answer to the two questions in Matt. 24:3.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

And 1914 is not there. It is only there to those who are willing to accept a man-made organization's convoluted assumption based non-scholarly speculations. And that's the truth.

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Luke 21:24 with its 'Gentile Times' puts 1914 right there in the centre of Lukan Eschatology and it is there because one can easily discern the dual application of the Olivet Discourse based on a literal fulfilment in the first century then telescoping into a much larger and future fulfilment characteristic of events evident from 1914 CE.nicely described by A.T Robertson as a painting with the artist by skilful perspective gives varying views. Refer Word Pictures In New Testament, Vol 1, pp.187-8, 1930, Broadman Press,Nashville, Tennessee.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven7

And 1914 is not there. It is only there to those who are willing to accept a man-made organization's convoluted assumption based non-scholarly speculations. And that's the truth.

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False for 1914 is right there at the very centre of the Olivet Discourse by means of the 'Gentile Times' in Luke 21:24 and the very fact of the Parousia and its theological significance. The book of Revelation with the Four Horsemen which nicley parallel those significant events discussed earlier in the Olivet Discourse with such a Revelation of future things come in the 'Lord's Day which began in 1914 CE

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

provide scriptural backing for the JW notion that the ‘great tribulation’ occurs after Jesus’ presence begins.

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Too easy. The structure of the narrative as recorded in the Olivet Discourse shows that the timing of the Great Tribulation is associated with the ;chosen ones' so it would appear that such an activity including that there would be false prophets that would attempt to mislead those same chosen ones would occur not at the beginning of the Parousia but rather towards the end of the Parousia.

Scholar triumphs again!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

You have not addressed the following issue in those pericopes about the sign of the Son of Man and its accompanying events.

scholar JW