Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jeffro

  'scholar':

  You only have to read those pericopes that deal with or mention the 'chosen ones' and the part that they play in the outworking of the Olivet Discourse. The Olivet Discourse has and will continue to be the subject of interpretation but ours is better or superior to your interpretation because we see that it is to a large part -eschatological especially from vs 29 ff in Matt 24 notwithstanding that from vss. 4-28 has noth a dual fulfilment in prophecy and history.

  Drivel. The 'chosen ones' are mentioned in verses 20, 22 and 27 of Matthew chapter 24, wherein it says that after they survive the 'tribulation' (which is 'cut short on their account'), then the 'parousia' occurs at which time they are 'gathered'. None of this supports the JW dogma that the tribulation happens during the 'parousia'.
  
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  That is 'word salad'. It isn't the 'structure of the narrative' that 'shows the timing'. The direct statements in Matthew 24:15-31 indicate the 'timing'. Regarding the 'chosen ones', the passage directly states that the 'tribulation' would be 'cut short' on account of the 'chosen ones', and only after the tribulation had ended was 'Christ' meant to appear to 'gather' the 'chosen ones'. No part of the 'structure' suggests the 'presence' of Christ prior to or even during the 'tribulation'.

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  Be that as it may, for the Olivet Discourse requires interpretation on two levels: a first-century fulfilment with the destruction of Jerusalem and a later fulfilment with Christ's Parousia beginning in 1914 CE. The direct statements from vs 15 31 prove that there is a mixture of the timing that was to occur prior to 70 CE and after 1914 CE.The chosen ones in the first instance refer to Jesus' disciples and the latter refers to His anointed ones living after 1914 or at the time of His Parousia.

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  The JW claim that Jesus' presence began in 1914 with a yet future 'great tribulation' contradicts the Bible's quite direct order of events: 'great tribulation', and then Christ's presence. Their view is a relic of C. T. Russell's failed claims about 1799, 1874 and 1878 and J. F. Rutherford's subsequent attempts to retrofit those claims to 1914 and beyond.

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  No it does not make any contradiction with Jesus' clear and unambiguous statement about the great tribulation which climaxed the Parousia.

  scholar JW
  
  

  
  
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  • Drivel. The 'chosen ones' are mentioned in verses 20, 22 and 27 of Matthew chapter 24, wherein it says that after they survive the 'tribulation' (which is 'cut short on their account'), then the 'parousia' occurs at which time they are 'gathered'. None of this supports the JW dogma that the tribulation happens during the 'parousia'.

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    Incorrect. The chosen ones referred to in vss.20 -22 are a different group as to timing as this group are of the first century and the chosen ones are of a future time, the time of His Parousia or when the Son of man will appear in glory. Plain and simple!!! LOL

    scholar JW

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• 

  Jeffro

  'scholar':
  

  Be that as it may, for the Olivet Discourse requires interpretation on two levels: a first-century fulfilment with the destruction of Jerusalem and a later fulfilment with Christ's Parousia beginning in 1914 CE. The direct statements from vs 15 31 prove that there is a mixture of the timing that was to occur prior to 70 CE and after 1914 CE.The chosen ones in the first instance refer to Jesus' disciples and the latter refers to His anointed ones living after 1914 or at the time of His Parousia.

  None of the statements in Matthew 24:15-31 say, suggest or require any "mixture of the timing", and no part of it indicates anything about 1914. But feel free to specify the "direct statements" that you imagine support your position.
  

  Incorrect. The chosen ones referred to in vss.20 -22 are a different group as to timing as this group are of the first century and the chosen ones are of a future time, the time of His Parousia or when the Son of man will appear in glory. Plain and simple!!! LOL

  Thanks for demonstrating once again that you can't point to anything specific in the source material to support your (the Watch Tower Society's) position. Instead, you just regurgitate JW dogma.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Scholar,

  In your view, is Matthew 24:34 referring to the 1914 generation or to his own generation or to both?

  And are you praying that your flight will not occur in winter or on a Sabbath day?
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  Disillusioned JW

  That is a good point Vanderhoven7 about the reference in Matthew chapter 24:20 to a Sabbath day, as the JWs and most other Christians (but not the SDA and some others) don't abstain form all work on a Sabbath day (whether the Jewish Sabbath day on the 7th day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath day on the 1st day of the week). It shows that text in Matthew about the tribulation (at least most of it) only pertains to the time of the 1st century in Judea. But perhaps it also indicates that the vast majority of Christians today by not keeping the 7th day Sabbath, are breaking a major law of Yahweh and are not following Christ in regards to observance of that Sabbath..
  

  That reminds of something else also, namely the twisted way the WT sometimes states things. When I was a very active JW the WT had an article which said that JW don't observe the Sabbath, while at the same time it said that everyday JW rest from works to earn their own salvation (or prove their righteousness, or something like that) and thus observe a sabbath everyday. In other words, the WT was trying to make it sound that the JWs both don't observe the Sabbath and that the JWs do observe everyday as a sabbath. I thought that was a messed up deceptive doctrine, yet I mentioned that doctrine to a householder one day in field service when he asked if I (or the JWs) observe the Sabbath day. The WT had infected my thinking regarding whether the JW observe the Sabbath (or a sabbath) or not.
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  Fisherman

  No it does not make any contradiction with Jesus' clear and unambiguous statement about the great tribulation which climaxed the Parousia.

  Scholar,

  That is why the gospels say: Tell US.. What will be the sign of your Parousia? —Which those with spiritual blindness cannot see. —Like the Pharisees who asked Jesus for a sign from heaven rejecting all his miracles and teachings and even his resurrection ( you did not discern the day of you being inspected ) Divine disfavor was manifested in 70CE but even today “Jews” refuse to see any correlation between 70 CE and Jesus.

  The WT has published that today people refuse to see the sign of Jesus’s Parousia by not responding to the good news and becoming subjects of the theocracy and that makes them fighters against the kingdom, therefore, ALL will be forced to see when the son of man is revealed. They refused to see mentally but when the sign of the son of man appears in the heaven-indisputable proof from God- they will know, the will have to know. So, according to JW, the sign includes war, famine, persecution, preaching, destruction of bogus religion, the great tribulation, and finally miraculous convincing evidence which will also prove what JW have been saying all along: (They took no note until the flood came and swept them all way.) So when it hits by this time you don’t need the sign. The sign was there all along. That is how we at JW see it.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Fisherman,

  If there was a sign for the parousia Jesus would have told his disciples. But since there wasn't a sign he said, "at a time you think not the Son of Man cometh." But of that day knoweth no man. Matthew 25:36, 44

  But of course Barbour and Charles Russell heralded 1874 for the Parousia based on the signs Christ never gave. 1914 was an afterthought made around 1930. Rutherford looked back because Jesus said when you see WW1 you will know I have invisibly returned.
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  Fisherman

  Parousia

  Matthew 24:37-39 (nwt-E) — For just as the days of Noah were, so the Parousia of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the Parousia of the Son of man will be.
  
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  Fisherman

  If there was a sign for the parousia Jesus would have told his disciples.

  Hi Van,

  He did. “What will be the sign of your Parousia.” answer: preaching, etc.

  But since there wasn't a sign he said, "at a time you think not the Son of Man cometh.

  He was referring to “ that day and hour”( no one knows ) during the days of his Parousia and he explains by liking it to the the days of Noah to the days of the Son of Man—DAYS not day. Vis-à-vis on the DAY the son of man is REVEALED.